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Tractor Stability on Hills

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ncrunch2
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2004-03-03          78597

KW, I am considering widening the rear wheel span on my 4310. I see from your pics that you changed rims(wheels) at some point. I have the round inside "hub" on my wheel where you now have a "squareish" hub. I look at manual - spoke to dealer - they just speak in generalities about ability to widen tread. Did you need to replace the "circle" design hub to make width adjustments on your wheels?

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2004-03-03          78600

The original R4s I had were on one piece rims, the R1s I now have are on two-piece adjustable rims (with the square center hub). One piece rims have two positions and the widest setting is when the valve stems are to the outside. With the adjustable rims the center hub is bolted to the outer rim and can be repositioned to change the offset. The manual has an explanation of this but it's not really clear unless you can examine the real thing. Beware, these tires are heavy, especially if they're fluid filled, and changing them around is nearly impossible do without hoists to move and adjust them. Unlike cars and trucks the axle flanges don't have center hubs to support the rims so lining up the axle flange and rims and getting the bolts placed is a tough job even with a hoist. ....

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ncrunch32
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2004-03-03          78614

Thanks for the info KW. Somehow I got listed as non-premium member and then misspelled my id. My valves stems are already on the outside so looks like I would have to purchase the adjustable rims to get the same width you have. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-03-03          78620

I didn't experience any stability problems on hills with the 15-19.5 R4s that were originally installed. After the rollover I decided to trade for R1s. The taller R1s raised the center of gravity a couple of inches, and since the new rims could be adjusted wider I had them set as wide as possible. You can't be too stable on those hills! ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-03-04          78728

Buying new wheels may not be necessary. A fairly standard way to widen stances on many tractors is to reverse the wheels. I don't suppose all wheels can be reversed and reversing them doesn't make any difference if the rim is mounted symmetrically on the hub.

Reversing them usually means swapping left and right wheels, which puts the valve stem on the inside. Just turning the wheels around also widens the stance but also reverses the tread. R1's are directional and provide more traction going forward than in reverse. Many areas are served by mobile tire shops that pump out loaded tires, do any work required and re-load them. Such services may be well worth the cost. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-03-04          78769

I don't have the R4s around anymore to look at, but the manual says the widest stance is with the stems to the outside and that seems correct IIRC. Easy to check - measure the distance from the bolt flange to the edge of the rim on both sides and position the rims so the longest dimension is to the outside, keeping the tire rotational direction correct of course. ....

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Abbeywoods
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 New England
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2004-03-04          78778

Ncrunch, remember that a wider wheel setting is good insurance, but what is a stable condition one day may be unstable the next. High ground water, rain soaked ground, thawing frost, wet grass, and your ability to attain the same position you did prior - all have an effect on your ability to keep the shiny side up. If you have an FEL, carry your load low, and always use the proper counter-balance or ballast. ....

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ncrunch32
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2004-03-04          78783

I believe that my one piece rims on R4 tires are already at their widest (stem out). I can't easily spot the location of bolt flanges on inside of the wheel since the backhoe is on right now but will do it when I drop the backhoe.

I am surprised by the "default" narrow width these tractors have when they leave the dealer. I drove tractors when I was a kid - mowed fields and hauled apples in hilly orchard country. The "old ford" felt very comfortable on the hills compared to the way these tractors feel.

Two people on my street were killed in tractor "roll-overs" when I was a kid. One - a "perfectionist" farmer - was spraying dandelions on a side hill - they shoveled him up after the tractor rolled over on him and caught on fire. My father was there to help in the aftermath. The other was a 20 year old boy who was plowing - hit a rock with plow - and the front of the tractor crawled up in the air and fell over back on him.

I don't care about myself - I have had a few close calls already. But I get nervous when my wife and kids hop on the tractor.

....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2004-03-04          78784

Abbeywoods, you are right about being careful with the FEL. I was carrying a bucket of item #4 down a moderately sloped hill at a reasonable speed. All of a sudden I started slowly rising up in the air - it took me a second or two to realize what was going on. I dropped the bucket and the rear wheel came down.

Now I creep down hills with the FEL about a foot off the ground and wait to feel anything unusual - my hand in position to drop the bucket. ....

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ScooterMagee
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2004-03-04          78787

Ncrunch, I had a similar thing happen to me.

I was mowing across a slope (dumb) where I thought I was solid, when all of a sudden I started to slide sideways and the left rear tire started to lift. I didn’t know whether to unbuckle and jump (dumb), or ride it out. But in that instant of indecision, I hit the joystick and dropped the FEL, and stabilized the tractor before it went over. Then with the bucked sliding on the ground, I slowly backed down and around, to where I was now pointing up the hill.

Needless to say, I finished the mowing job going up and down instead. ....

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ncrunch32
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2004-03-04          78797

Scooter, that retaining wall project looks like quite an undertaking. Are you done with it? How did it go? Your soil sure looks lots more sandy than what we have here in the Hudson Valley of NY. ....

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ScooterMagee
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2004-03-04          78800

I didn’t quite get it finished. Winter set in and the ground froze solid, plus I ran out of backfill stone. So, I’m about 100 blocks shy of being done. I’ll post a “project completed” picture in the spring.

As for the soil, it’s good’ole Nebraska clay, not much sand or organics. Crunch, look like you had a ’bit of a retaining wall project yourself? ....

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ncrunch32
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2004-03-04          78801

Yeah, I had a retaining wall. Then the neighbor complained about the total height of the pool fence + retaining wall and the town gave me 3 weeks to fix it and threatened me with legal action. So I brought in 64 yards of fill and banked it up against the retaining wall so that it is no longer a retaining wall and just an elevated grade from the lawn. I had originally planned to finish it off with stone that I hauled off a mountain. The stone is now in a big pile in my lower yard. I am not sure the neighbor or the town did the best thing for themselves. ....

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TomG
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2004-03-05          78855

Scooter: There's been a bunch of discussion whether it's best to turn into or down a hill in your situation. I have some faith that most people with some experience just do the best thing if faced with a situation. I believe my instincts are to turn into a hill as you did and that's what I've done when faced with 'little' stability problems.

A number of people have the opinion that for general emergencies on side hills, turning downhill is best and I accept those opinions. Turning uphill may be best in many situation when it can be done in a controlled manner but turning downhill most times is the fastest way to regain control. I've said many and most a lot because there are no simple single rules that are best for all situations. Irrespective of up or down, the main thing is to get the tractor out of a side-hill attitude as fast as possible. ....

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ScooterMagee
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2004-03-05          78876

Tom, in my near rollover, the biggest contributor (behind my own arrogance and stupidity) was the ability of the front axle to rock freely. Even though you have 4-points of contact (the tires), the rocking of the front axle somewhat emulates a tricycle. As you start to go over, you pivot on 2-points, the front-pivot and one of the rear tires, just like if you leaned forward and to the side on a tricycle. This is why in my crisis, the lowering of the FEL, countered the pivoting of the front, and I was essentially able to force the rear tire back down with the FEL. At this point it was easier to drag the bucket backwards and back the tractor down the hill, then go forward and up. ....

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Chief
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Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-03-05          78879

I have the R-4 tires on my 4410 and there is nearly no difference in width by reversing the tires. I make it a point to cut or work on hills/slopes perpendicular to the slope. There is little to no warning of an impending roll over due to the narrow width of the rear tires. I will work on modest slopes but my SOPSM alarm is the first and best indication of operating on too much slope. It is a very accurate meter and I caution all to listen to it closely. ;o) ....

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ncrunch32
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2004-03-05          78885

Chief, I can be very dense at times. What is the SOPSM alarm? :) ....

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Murf
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2004-03-05          78887

SOPSM = Seat Of Pants Slope Meter.

Also known as the 'Pucker Factor'...the little twinge that Mother Nature uses to tell you you're pushing your luck.



Best of luck. ....

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ncrunch32
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2004-03-05          78888

Aha! I figured it had to be something like that. I'll get with the program after a while. :) ....

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Chief
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2004-03-05          78909

Murf nailed it. It is that sphinkter operated seat of the pants slope meter alarm. If you exceed its slope tolerance; it will cause severe rust colored stain in your draws. ;o) ....

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Murf
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2004-03-05          78910

If you're a pilot it also works as a stall indicator, VNE indicator, and sometimes as a wind-shear indicator...LOL

Randy, about that rust coloured stain, I wondered about that, I always chalked it up to nicotene stains but I quit smoking years ago...... ....

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Chief
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2004-03-05          78911

Murf as a matter of fact I am a retired military helicopter maintenance test pilot. My SOPM was originally tune to the low rotor rpm audio, engine out audio, and engine compressor stalls. I have had my SOPM go into the SD mode (soil draws mode) on an occasion or two during maximum power checks on the engines and autorotational rpm checks. When you have over 3,900 shaft horsepower strapped to your buttox and things go wrong the SOPM is KEENLY and extremely sensitively calibrated! ;o) I have SEVERAL pairs of "Superman draws" ;o) ....

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Murf
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2004-03-05          78918

Randy, I recall that you wrenched birds, I've been in that 'adrenaline zone' before myself a few times.

Mechanical failures aren't nearly as scary as say, bogeys on your radar, or the sound of 7.62's from a AK below you coming up through the fuselage. A sure way to ruin some perfectly good stick time.

Best of luck. ....

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Oly_Mark
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2004-03-06          79044

I was wondering if anyone has ever rolled a 4310. I would think we should be strapped in and say under the roll bar. I am not sure of the unstrap and jump choice, but then again if someone knows that the staying put idea doesn't work...well I guess I should jump.

I also almost rolled my 4310 due to mud and a slope. It is helpful to know that these things are fairly easy to roll. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-03-06          79049

You mean like my pic #7? That happened when the soil at the edge of a depression collapsed under the left side tires. I think most tractors are easy to roll, but those that have a higher center of gravity are easier. That's why I set my tires at the widest possible setting. Tractor Rollovers are one of the biggest causes of fatalities in agriculture. ....

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Oly_Mark
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2004-03-06          79051

Did you jump or stay in the seat. Should we hope the roll bar protects us? :) ....

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CraigC
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2004-03-06          79052

Did you get hurt in that deal? Less importantly did the tractor? ....

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kwschumm
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2004-03-06          79054

I had the seatbelt on and the ROPS kept it from rolling. Actually, I never felt in danger. It happened very slow since the loader arms contacted a tree and the tree slowly got pushed over by the weight of the tractor. However, I could easily have been pinched between the tractor and a tree. I was fine and the tractor was fine - no damage at all, except the battery leaked a little acid when a loose cap fell off. I learned though, always use the seat belt and keep that ROPS up! ....

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Peters
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2004-03-06          79060

I would rather not rely on the sphinkter factor when flying. It certainly is different having mechanical failures in a chopper over the air field vs over mountains with no place to put it down.
I have had the tractors on 2 wheels a number of times. Cetainly putting a little weight a lower CG helps, such are partly filling the rear tires. It has become one of my factors in purchasing a CUT. ....

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agentorange
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Posts: 117 Pacific Northwest
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2004-03-06          79079

Wouldn't having rear wheel weights be a good idea if concerned with overall stability?

This post was not meant to be a "here's what you should'a done" statement.

I am very happy that our member is OK. Goes without saying.


My post was an inquiry only about general stability issues. As I read down thru others and got to mine, saw that it might looked a bit insensitive.

-ao ....

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DRankin
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2004-03-07          79089

Ken, I know exactly what you mean about the slow-motion aspect. I just laid my 4115 on it's side when I got too close to a trench I was refilling. Kinda scary.

Thank God for a loader bucket that is a bit wider than the front end and traction lock. Despite the fact I had to extract it going uphill, in the mud, I got it out on it's own power. Maybe I should be thankful for radial tires too.

It s a little weird to disembark from a tractor when the whole thing is listing at a 45+ degree angle and the left floorboard is partially buried. Lesson learned, I hope. ....

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Wildman1
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2004-03-07          79090

I think having a PLAN helps. I was driving a Pitts Special S1S (single place, 200hp, 1100lbs gross) doing vertical snap rolls with hammerheads off the top. Well, after one snap I was over vertical so pushed the stick forward to straighten the line whilst stomping full left rudder for the hammerhead with full outside aileron to stay knife edge through the hammerhead...all with full power. The Pitts fell on its back and started rotating in an inverted flat spin (like I told it to unintentionally). Now, having 500hrs in the Pitts and NEVER having done an inadvertant spin, only thousands of intentional spins, I did not know which way I was spinning...only that I was. So...having studied the issue prior and read the Gene Beggs/Eric Mueller inadvertant spin recovery techniques and practiced them..viola'. I punched the closest rudder pedal, power off & let go of the stick and she was out of it..immediately. That was the PLAN should it occur. Had I not had a PLAN, I could have easily screwed myself into the ground. (What an adrenalin rush!!)

So, I look at what I'm getting ready to do and the terraine features and approach accordingly (the PLAN). Should things fall apart anyway..well, stay strapped in, drop the bucket and wait for the noise to stop (the 2nd PLAN).

Sorry for the long winded post. I love tractors and flying! ....

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hardwood
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2004-03-07          79093

agentorange, I've got two sets of rear wheel weights on my 4310 with R4 tires. I allways keep the loader bucket low and the rotary mower down. I've had it slide sideways down a slope on wet grass, but I've quit doing that and now mow up and down the slope the sliding thing gets too scary. The seatbelt is there for a good reason, "Your Saftey", please use it. There is no such thing as deciding whether to jump, things just happen too quick. I've had enough close calls with road traffic that we just have a policy of not starting a tractor, roll bar, ROPS cab, either way without the seatbelt being fastened. I've attended the State sponsored saftery classes put on by the Iowa DOT for farm equipment saftey on public roads, if your state offers this class I would highly recommend attending. We live on a main route for work trafic into the city, (about 1500 units per day). It's amazing how few of the drivers respect a tractor pulling two wagons of grain with all saftey flashers working, SMV signs in full display, going 15 MPH. My total GVW is about 60 ton and theirs is between 2000 to 3000 lbs. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-03-07          79108

Mark, it's times like that when you're grateful for seat belts, ROPS, and a little divine intervention. There's not much you can do when the ground gives way. I'm sure glad you're OK, and welcome to the club. Did you take any pics? Any damage to the tractor? ....

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DRankin
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2004-03-07          79112

Ken: I didn't get any pics and the only thing hurt was my pride.

Wildman: I remember the Pitts Special, didn't you also have a low wing racer with a modified VW engine?

Do you still have those planes? what are you flying theses days? ....

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Wildman1
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2004-03-07          79140

Mark..the low wing was a Bowers Flybaby. It wasn't a racer and was powered by a 65hp Continental. It started my passion for aerobatics. I sold all of the aircraft over the last 2 years. We spend most free time on our boat. I have a Super Cub when I need it for free in return for my teaching the owner's son how to fly.

Flying full time air taxi wore me out. 800hrs/year..mostly in the summer. Tractoring & catching shrimp & halibut are good enough for now.

Glad your tractor incident had a happy ending. We sure don't need major problems at our age.

Mike ....

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TomG
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2004-03-08          79214

I don't know if it was said somewhere in this thread but using ROSPS without a seat belt may be less safe than using neither. Without a seat belt: If a person gets thrown from a tractor and it doesn't roll there's a good chance of being run over by an implement. If it's rolling, a person who does jump almost always jumps off the low side and then the ROSP comes down on top of them. ....

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