Go BottomMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
 | TimInNH
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 19 Canaan, NH 
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2004-02-09 76415
I'm pretty sure now that I must have a lemon...
- When I first bought this tractor (new), in November of 2002, it was delivered a day late because of a cut radiator hose (from the fan blade) that the dealership noticed, when loading it on the truck, to be delivered.
- Then, when they fixed that problem and delivered it, I discovered right away that it had a defective eHydro controller, since half the time, it wouldn't move when I tried to go forward or backwards.
- And, in the spring, I discovered that the tractor developed an oil leak in the left/rear wheel seal. (It had to go back to the dealership again)
- Last summer, the tilt steering mechanism stopped working and they came out to put in a new one (another known defect)
- Okay, you'd think I'd finally had enough bad luck, but when I was out snowblowing the driveway over the weekend, and at one point when I went to back up, it wouldn't move (either forward or backwards). After about 10 seconds of trying, it started to back up, and I then noticed a 'hot' smell, and no sooner than that, the tractor lurched and died. Even the lights wouldn't work. When I checked to see if the battery cables were tight, I found that the battery was quite hot to the touch, so I disconnected it.
Now, I'm waiting for the dealership to open so I can call about this....
I will be sure to post what I find out, once they figure out what the problem is (I'm guessing something electrical).
Anyone else out there having such lousy luck with their John Deere?
- Tim
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee 
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2004-02-09 76435
I bought my 4410 in September of 2002. I have had problems with the battery venting electolyte and being drawn into the radiator during use for prolonged periods in hot weather. I think this is a battery problem aggrivated by placement up against the transmission oil cooler. The tilt wheel mechanism IS kinda el cheapo but mine still works. Other than those issues; I have had very good performance from mine. Sorry to hear that you are having such bad luck. I am sure your dealer will make it right. Be patient and hang in there. ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-09 76443
Here's a link to the recall notice. No problems on mine yet but my S/N is just a hundred or so below the low end of the serial number range. I'm curious to know whats different between mine and those. I don't sweat recalls too much - it seems like every new vehicle I've ever bought has had at least one recall. These are complicated products after all and God knows I've worked on a lot of complex systems that are never bug-free when shipped. But when something starts spending a lot of time in the shop instead of on the job I get a little bugged. ....
Link: JD HST Recall Notice
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
 | drcjv.
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 334 southeastern pa
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2004-02-09 76444
I wonder if the lemon laws apply to tractors.
Good luck ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-09 76446
If it were mine I'd start talking nicely to my dealer about replacing it or extending the warranty for free. Might even escalate to the JD rep. ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| Ironpeddler
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 111 Science Hill,KY USA
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2004-02-09 76461
Give the dealer a chance to help you. If he does not help you, call the section rep and have all the data concerning the problems and time line of the problems. Give the Rep a chance to help you but if he starts double talking. Mention thay you know about the Consumer Product Safety Commission mandate for these dear models. If the engine is dead , I have to believe that the transmission had something to do with that failure. Make sure you have your service records because they will ask you to produce them. They may wipe the JD files so ask your dealer to print your records off for you before you contact the JD rep. I hope you resolve your problem quickly. I'd trade this unit or ask JD if they would give you a subsidized trade. That stinks but get out of a bad situation with your lemon unit. ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| jdgreen
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 232 Maryland
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2004-02-09 76471
I would check the relay module in the lower left corner of the fuse panel. I've seen a couple of these fail for no apparent reason. If you pull it out you might see a burnt spot on it. Pop in a new one and you are good to go. ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2004-02-11 76621
It does sound like you have had your fair share of problems and several other peoples too! Be patient and get the dealer to trade you out of the tractor. You definitly need to replace the whole wiring harness on that thing as well as all electronic's. There is a flaw or a short there somewhere. ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-02-11 76638
TimInNH, please keep us posted on how this is resolved. Inquiring minds want to know! Good luck. ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| TimInNH
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 19 Canaan, NH
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2004-02-11 76645
Hi All -
Thanks much for all the support and suggestions. I really do appreciate it!
Well, according to the guy I talked with on the phone, after I got home on Monday, the 'positive' lead from the battery, was rubbing against 'something' (I wasn't told what), and this is what caused it to short out.
And, when I was listing off all the problems to the dealer, that I have had so far, he said that more than likely when the person replaced the radiator hose, when it was cut and leaked out radiator fluid (the day before it was to be delivered to me), they probably routed the cables/wires in the wrong spot. I can definitely believe this since I find it very difficult to close the front panel, since the cables/wires that are attached to the radiator 'tube' (not sure of the proper term) stick out so far that I can't get the side of the front panel to fit in where it's supposed to be.
So, when they come back on Thursday, to replace the cable, I asked they they also re-route the cables where they should be.
When I asked the dealer if John Deere would kick in an extended warranty at no charge, because of all the problems I've had, he said that he doubted they would and left it at that. Guess I didn't sound pissed enough......
But, I would still like to talk with someone from John Deere to see if I can at least have some sort of compensation for all the crap I've gone through with this tractor.
Thanks again everyone. Hopefully this will be the last problem for quite some time. I'm dreading breaking the 100 hour mark (just kidding...)
I'll post any other information that I find out, too.
- Tim ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| cerberus
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 38 Westsunbury Pa
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2004-02-11 76653
Tim , I'd at least ask for a new battery . If it shorted out enough to get warm I'm sure it didn't do it much good :)
They should also replace the Positive lead . Just taping it would be insufficient in my opinion . Hope things go smoother for you in the future . John ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
 | bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-02-11 76684
Hey, Tim. Just wanted to share a little of my experience and let you know that your dealer sounds like he's going to take care of you but is pretty pessimistic about what the company may do. Based on what you have listed as past problems, it seems more than reasonable that you should ask for, and receive, an extension to your warranty. Remember, you were never really delivered a "NEW" tractor as defined in your purchase agreement. In addition to the express (written) warranty on you tractor, JD (and all consumer companies) has/have an obligation to deliver a fully functioning (as advertised and promised) product. This is termed an "Implied Warranty of Merchantability."
First, you need to contact the JD Customer Complaint Center (CCC) at 1-800-537-8233. You will have to work through the recorded "automated attendant" pushing a series of numbers on your phone to get to the right people. Once you get somebody, let them know you have a "NEW" tractor with chronic problems. Make sure you write down the name of your advisor. They will also issue you a case numer.
Diplomatically explain your trials and tribulations including all the stpes the dealer has taken. Let them know exactly what you expect: An exttension to the warranty of your machine based in the documented warrantable problems encountered since you took delivery of a NEW machine. Let them know that if they cannot extend your warranty that you expect a new machine at nominal depreciation costs. I would also suggest you put you complaint in writing (in a very positive tone) clearly itemizing what your expectations are as far as the extended warranty goes.
Play it by ear from there, but also insist on a reply within a reasonable time; say, 30 days. You might also take the diplomatic sep of letting your dealer know that you appreciate all of his effort, but that it seems that there are too many issues with this particular unit to expect a normal tractor worklife from a very expensive investment. Copy your dealer on the letter to the CCC, and watch the wheels turn. If this doesn't work out, you've done what you can. If you have ANY more problems, JD will be already on notice and you will save yourself some aggravation.
Put it in writing, and good luck. I worked a deal on problems smaller than yours with a leaky 2210, and I must say I am pleased with the support I got from both my dealer and the CCC. If they won't extend the warranty and you are still dissatisfied, you might offer up $20-$30 per hour in depreciation costs to get a brand new machine. I did, and I'm operating a new machine now at a nominal cost for my time using the equipment. Everybody felt it was a fair resolution. Pete
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 689 Western,Pa. 
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2004-02-11 76691
Thats good advice bigpete and I'm glad your happy with the way your problems were worked out.
But $30 per hour depreciation at 61 hours is $1830.
An extra $1800 to get a new tractor that I paid a large sum of money to get in the first place would be unexceptable to me. (my opinion)
Tim paid for a new, working tractor. If John Deere can't or won't supply that without additional costs to the buyer then there is a serious problem !! ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-02-12 76705
I don't disagree with the spirit your notion, but $20 per hour is a reasonable depreciation rate for use of a tractor. Someone might be able to negotiate a lower depreciation rate, but there will be a cost for the 60 hours.
Most straight trade-ins end up being at much higher hourly deprectiation rate. JD or any tractor company is going to call on its warranty responsibilities which they will show they have upheld. Their option under their express warranty is to repair or replace--their option, not the owner's. Even though the tractor has had chronic problems, the tractor has been fixed each time. Insisting on a brand new tractor at no additional cost will almost certainly result in failed negotiations. In fact, those 60 hours were used doing something with the tractor. I began my negotiations by insisting on a new tractor at no cost and was told that my tractor would be repired according to the warranty--no choices. My negotiated rate was only a little less than $20 per hour. When I think of the work I did in those hours, and the costs I would have incurred to have it done professionally or with a rented tractor, the depreciation rate was fair.
Some states have lemon laws that cover ag equipment, but they are written for people making a living with the tractor. I could not show a loss of personal income for down time, so I had no recourse under those laws.
Just telling it like it is. You can ask for a new tractor at no cost for your useage, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Pete
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 689 Western,Pa.
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2004-02-12 76709
Please don't take this as arguing with you Pete, Because I'm not.
Just voicing my opinion.
If I buy a tractor where there could be a possible problem that could cost me extra to rectify I'll buy USED.
If I buy new thats what I expect to get, A new fully funtional tractor.What ever it takes replacement/repair I don't care I paid for a new/funtional tractor.
If the Mfg. can not supply me that at no additional cost to me there is something wrong.
If I am forced to take a depriciation loss on a new machine, it would be by selling it off, taking the loss, Never buying that product again and letting everyone know exactly what I thought of that product and why. ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-02-12 76718
I won't argue with your opinion, but I think there is a very limited possibility in this case that JD, or any manufacturing company, would replace this tractor at no depreciation cost to the customer. I am just offering my take on this situation from my experience and knowledge of warranty practices. This is one of those cases that is in the grey area where the tractor is rightfully considered used for the small amount of hours from which the owner has benefitted, and the owner has a rightful claim that he was never delivered a truly "New" tractor as promised.
There is a reality, however, where companies (JD, Kubota, Ford, Dell Computers, Black and Decker, etc...) honor products as "new," and provide for a return for a full refund or replacement. JD's has typically been a 30-day "Promise" period, and similar satisfaction gurantees are usually clearly expressed. If the "total satisfaction" period is not expressed, there is also the legal concept of the Implied Warranty of Merchantability that I mentioned earlier. Ouside of these time periods that define "new," the warranty and warranty law for a given state are the only recourse a customer has. Good companies go beyond the limitations of these legal guidelines. If I didn't make it clear earlier, even though I had to pay something for the hours on my 2210, JD went way beyond their legal and warranty obligations. They didn't HAVE to provide me with a new tractor at cost plus depreciation on the defective one. All they had to do was keep on fixing it.
Once a reasonable period of time passes and a machine or product has been used--even if it seems only slightly used--a different set of business practices and legal rules typically apply. If the customer had insisted that the tractor be exchanged for a new tractor immediately after the eHydro had failed in the first few hours, I'd bet a dollar to a stale bagel that the dealer and JD would have issued a refund or new replacement. However, the eHydro unit was fixed under waranty. Other problems began to occur, each repaired under waranty as requested by the customer.
I've personally been through this. My brand-new JD2210 leaked from the toplink plate within 5 hours of delivery. In retrospect, I MIGHT have insisted on a new tractor to replace the leaker right away. My dealer and JD both said that they would have accommodated my request based on their "promise" policy and on the legal precepts of implied warranty of merchantability. They sold me something that did not work as promised. I gave them 3 strikes to repair the leak, and demanded a new tractor after over 100 hours of use. It was twelve months later and my tractor was no longer new because I had used it for some pretty serious work that would have cost me thousands of dollars to farm out or rent equipment.
Don't get me wrong here. I KNOW JD should and will step up to the plate and work to replace this tractor if the customer insists. In fact, the dealer will likely support that type of remedy becasue it would mean he would not have to run the tractor back and forth, and wrangle for payment from JD on warranty work. JD wants a happy customer too, but they have a reasonable cause to say that the owner derived some value from the 60 hours of use, and that they have lived up to their obligations. WHo should pay for the 60 hours of use then? I think this is the only point we will disagree on. I think the courts would also agree that the owner derived benefit of use for 60 hours, and that JD still has an obligation. JD's obligation does not include allowing free use of a tractor. BTW, this is exactly how ag quipment lemon laws work in Delaware. When a farmer or pro has to rent equipment to earn a living while a lemon is down, the manufacturer can be held to account for those costs. But there has to be a loss of income shown....
As a side note, everybody has the right to stand their ground, insist on what they think is the right remedy, and boycott future use of a brand of product. Unfortunately, this course of action is not always the best economic path to take when you have a problem with a machine. Selling off the tractor on the open market will definately result in a higher cost for those 60 hours. Bottom line: don't be shy returning a machine immediately if you are not confident in whether it is everything you were promised. In the business world, promises have specific limitations, and a manufacturer's goodwill ages with time and use of the machine.
Pete ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-02-12 76723
Pete, Great post and sage advice! ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| TimInNH
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 19 Canaan, NH
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2004-02-17 77113
******************
First, you need to contact the JD Customer Complaint Center (CCC) at 1-800-537-8233. You will have to work through the recorded "automated attendant" pushing a series of numbers on your phone to get to the right people. Once you get somebody, let them know you have a "NEW" tractor with chronic problems. Make sure you write down the name of your advisor. They will also issue you a case numer.
******************
Pete - Just to let you know, I did call this phone # and the lady that took the information didn't even want to know all the problems (only the latest one). And, when I asked if John Deere could do anything for me, because of all these problems, such as extending the warranty at no charge, she told me 'no'. John Deere will extend my warranty only if I pay for it. I never even got a 'sorry' or anything. I was not impressed.
So, I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that this tractor stays working, and look into buying the extended warranty.
Thanks for the suggestions. I do appreciate it.
- Tim ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-02-17 77129
The extended warranty does not cover the whole tractor.... take a comb to the fine print before you plunk down your cash. ....
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Add PhotoMy 4410 with only 61 hrs died
| bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-02-17 77141
Hi, Tim. I trust you got the name of the person you spoke with in the event that you do have more problems. This is just me, but I like to formalize converstaions in writing, e.g "Dear Marsha Phoneperson, Thank you for your convesation on Feruary 13 concerning the documented, ongoing problems with my tractor. As we discussed , the machine has been in the shop on the following dates for the following problems
You don't have to take take my word for it, but if the worst case scenario comes about, all parties involved are going to ask for documentation. If you choose to write a letter now, you will prepare yourself for any unfortunate repeats of equipment failures. If you don't, it will be like starting all over again if any of the problems reccur. I repeat--after I documented my problems in a letter, things began to happen in favor of a resolution. IMO, you've got to put them on notice in writing. The sooner the better.
Ultimately, only JD's regional managers can offer to extend a warranty on a piece of equipment. Your dealer can request that extension for you and the RM would approve or deny the problem. When my machine was "repaired" and I insisted on a replacement, I was offered an extended warraty only on the affected area (rockshaft and housing) if I were to take back the repaired machine.
The CCC facilitates problem resolution and they don't really have any decision making authority, but they do make things happen--I testify. Perhaps they have a rule that, unless there is an existing problem, they cannot open a case file (if they not open one in your case). From what I recall reading, everything is currently operating on your machine. I wouldn't excuse them for their lack of formalizing you complaint.
BTW, as was mentioned above, the extended warranties are pretty much power train warranties. Your original warranty is the equivalent of a "bumper-to-bumper" warranty.
Pete ....
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