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JD 4410 hydrostatic trouble

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christopher
Join Date: Jul 2022
Posts: 0 Ontario Canada
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2003-11-26          69674

I've been looking through all the messages and it seems that many of you know more than my JD dealer. I've been having problems with the all amazing e-hydro since the day I bought it. When changing directions, (reverse to forward, or forward to reverse) the tractor pauses and then jumps to where it should have been. It's almost like it has to think about what I tell it to do, and then suddenly decides its OK. It makes no difference if I floor it, or just move the pedal to creep forward, the jerk is the same. It's kind of difficult to look like you know what your doing when your head is getting ripped of your shoulders all the time. The problem is hardly noticable when the tractor is still cold, which is why the dealer still hasn't got it fixed. You would think they would take the time to warm it up after trying to fix a problem for the 8th time. This jerk only happens when changing direction. If i travel forward, stop, and then continue forward, its smooth as silk. Same thing going backwards. Does anyone have some info that I can beat my dealer over the head with? (no "should have bought a kubota" please.) The service guys have been doing their best, but they have an order they have to follow for waranty work, so its really JD itself that i think sucks in this case. Help?

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Murf
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2003-11-26          69676

Chris, it sounds like it has to be in the reverser valve. If it was fluid (viscosity) or pump related it would happen every time it pauses. Just to be sure though you should try going forwards (or back), then shift only as far as neutral, then back to the same direction and see if you can reproduce the problem.

If there is a pressure test port in the system downstream of the reverser valve I would put a gauge on it and one before, then reproduce the problem. this will tell you whether the valve is the culprit, or the entire system is getting pressure surges.

Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2003-11-26          69680

you have a loss of pressure when changing directions. Tough part is, could it be the electronics, I doubt it, it but it still could be do to the types of shift, but I still would go with a split before they might find it. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-11-26          69681

What position is the motion match switch set to? ....

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Art White
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2003-11-26          69710

If it changes with the motion match then it might be electric! ....

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Chief
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2003-11-26          69717

Off the top of my head I can think of 3 things and I have posted one above. The other is a bad sensor or a bad potentiometer in the foot pedals. Is the malfunction light flashing when the tractor behaves like this. If it is write down the flash sequence and call the dealer to find out what they are. ....

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jdgreen
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 232 Maryland
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2003-11-26          69741

Chris, What is your serial number? Some of the earlier 4410's had a glitch in the controller that required replacing the controller and then recalibrating it. If yourlast six digits are under 141272, that may solve your problem. Refer your dealer to service bulletin 03-11-35-01.
....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-11-26          69744

jdgreen, My serial # ends in 141129. Did all of these units have this problem or just the occasional problem. Mine is jerky in a sense but I have just become used to it and take it easy on the pedals, nice and slow. I am satisfied and happy with mine but now I wonder if an upgrade would make it function even better. I will run it by the shop tech at the dealer. Can't hurt to ask. ....

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Chief
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2003-11-26          69745

I will take my 4410 out and try operating it in the manor you say you are encountering this problem and see what mine does. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-11-27          69763

I'm curious if this lag and jerk when reversing occurs at all ground speeds or mostly at higher ones. Is there a lag if the tractor is stopped and then reversed? Is there noticeably braking when speed pedal off when going down hill with a load? Is there any reason to think that the filters and screen need changing?

I'm not likely to come with an explanation for HST's but these questions might help people who know about HST's to suggest ideas. Without really knowing, a wild guess is that hydraulics have to be managed when reversing at any speed and the controller likely handles that. There may be some cavitation in the system that results in the problem. ....

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Art White
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2003-11-27          69766

Tom, part of the problem with this is trying to figure out if it is an electrical problem now or a mechanical failure of a hydraulic switch. As much as the electric's have made the JD a more sympathatic transmission for the operator's it also seems in this case giving the technician more time to properly diagnois the problem. We all know that about the time everyone gets a handle on the faults of a machine then they modifiy it so we loose our comfort level. I wonder what all these controllers will cost in 10 years? It really doesn't make to much difference what make it is to look at the potential as we see it most every day in this field. ....

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topher
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2003-11-27          69808

Hi, this is Chris again. I actually registered this time so I'm showing up as "topher" now. Thanks for all the replies. In answer to a bunch of questions on this 4410 of mine, please read the following. The tractor has been doing the "jerky" thing almost from the day I bought it. The electronics have been checked over & over. The problem is that the jerky operation is barely noticable when the tractor is cold. I don't suppose many shop's would take the time to boot around for 15-20 minutes to double check something they're sure they fixed. The tractor has been re-calibrated twice, one potentiometer replaced, and the controler just recently was updated(software only). The only concrete problem they found was when the tractor stoped moving altogether. this did set of some codes (supply votage). It turned out to be the engine speed sensor, which had a dead short. This jerky operation is not setting any codes. It is present in all ranges, but to differing degrees ( as in the difference between popping the clutch in first, third, or fifth gear on a standard). all features like motion match and load match work like they should, except with the jerk added. As mentioned in my last message, forward-stop-forward=no jerk, back-stop-back=no jerk, forward-stop-back=jerk, back-stop-forward=whiplash. Moving pedal full travel or only partialy makes no difference. Waiting a few seconds after stopping and then going makes no difference. Yes, all fluids, filters, screens etc. have been serviced regularly. Im not sure about the vin #, but the dealer has checked for pips again and again, and nothing related except the upgrade has shown up. Their still working on it in the shop, but im getting the impression their looking for a needle in a haystack. Heres me looking for a match. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-11-28          69822

Hi Chris: That's a good description and sorry you're having trouble. I'm going to take a different tack here and say that maybe theorizing around here may not be that useful even if we identify the problem. The dealer still has to do the work under warranty and the factory has to be convinced it's a problem. So the problem may be more how to convince the dealer to take the problem forward. If I understand correctly, dealers shouldn't care because it's warranty work for them but the factory rep has to agree to a claim.

Documenting the problem seems like a good idea and at this point it sounds like the entire HST should be replaced if the problem can't be found. I've heard of that happening. If the dealer is fairly close maybe an appointment could be made and the tractor driven there so it's warm when tested. Maybe a video could be shot. Don't know but getting the dealer on board seems like the solution.

If I were theorizing, I'd start off figuring how a hydraulic system handles the problem of reversing without a controller and that might point toward what the controller isn't doing. It basically sounds like something is emptying out and then getting hit with pressure after it refills. Could be cavitation or actual fluid loss. Could be plain old pressure regulation and I don't know how it's regulated. I might also think about something outside system control--the pump itself for example. Most of all I'd try to reason why the problem becomes worse after it's warm. Don't know if this sort of stuff is helpful. It's just early morning thinking from a gear-head. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-11-28          69859

I am just making sure all options are covered but has the dealer tested a new 4410 on the lot against yours to demonstrate any differences. Sounds like there could be some kind of slow or sticking hyd. valve in the trans. causing this. I doubt I will find anything but let me look in the troubleshooting section of my shop manual and I will get back to you. ....

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topher
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2003-11-28          69863

Hi guys. Yes they did compare the operation of my tractor to a new one on the lot. Their was definatly a difference. I agree with the lack of a point in talking about the possible problems. I'm just hoping that someone out there in computer land has heard of a similar problem, and of course has a solution. With my luck, Im the only one in north america that bought a tractor with this problem. Heres hoping otherwise. The dealer said they should be done all their tests today. Ill let you know what they come up with, if anything. ....

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Chief
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2003-11-28          69866

Chris, on pg. 538 of the shop manual is the troubleshooting chart and under the sympton: Machine Movement Problem it notes the following:

Hyd. oil low?

Low charge pressure?

Main drive press. relief valve stuck open?

Air in system?

Hydrostatic pump output low?

Internal pump motor damaged?

Forward/Reverse proportional valve malfunction?


The last malfunction sounds like it may be in the area of problems you mention but these other tests and checks must be completed first to verify correct operation of system. I take it that the dealer has done all of this? If not, maybe you may want to run this by them. I am not making any implications about your dealer but sometimes the mechanic looks in the book last. I had to CONSTANTLY get on my guys about this when I was troubleshooting and repairing helicopters and their systems when I was on active duty.

Bottom line is that if your tractor is under warranty, the dealer and John Deere have the responsibility to get it right or replace your tractor. If this has been a lenghty on going ordeal, it might not hurt to ask if the dealer would work out something with John Deere to trade your tractor for another on their lot. If nothing else it will indicate your level of patience wearing thin and motivate them to take another look and think outside the box. Sounds to me like they are trying to work with you and more than likely have looked at all the things I have brought up. Hope this was of some help to you and they figure out what is the problem.



....

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Art White
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2003-11-28          69894

Good call chief! ....

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Chief
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2003-11-30          70007

Well I checked my tractor with respect to the direction changes today. I tried various speed direction changes and each time the tractor would come to a full stop momentarily and smoothly procede in the opposite direction. I even tried making a direction change at full throttle with full pedal forward and then immediate full pedal reverse. Each time the tractor performed as above. The fact that you state your tractor performs fine when cold and acts up when warmed up inidicate to me that your ehydro problem may not be an electrical/sensor problem. Sound to me like indeed the FRPV may be malfunctioning (i.e. sticking or hanging up). I would bet you that if you took the tractor out on some flat ground (driveway) and tried performing repeated direction changes for a sustained period, your tractor may start working better as the proportioning valve (hopefully ;-) loosens up. It may actually force the system to throw a code the dealer can work off of at the very least. I would say at the very least, it would not hurt to recalibrate both forward and reverse drive pedal potentiometers. If they replaced the reverse pedal potentiometer as you say; this should have already been done. If they had both pedal potentiometers disconnected and turned the key while doing the original repair; both pedals could be out of calibration concievabley.

This is not a real complicated system and if functions VERY similar to the automatic stabilator positioning system in the helicopters I used to fly. Basic sensors are:

Throttle position potentiometer
Drive pedal potentiometer
Fly wheel speed sensor
MFWD speed sensor
Forward/Reverse proportional valve coil

These feed the system controller. If any are not properly calibrated or malfunctioning; the ehydro will not work properly and should hopefully throw a malfuction code.


Let me know if you have not resolved this problem and I will run it by Jimmy at my John Deere dealer. Sounds to me like someone is not doing a full system diagnosis and skipping steps and swapping parts in hopes of getting lucky. Ask your dealer to conduct a full system calibration and function check with the JDG 1575 Test & Calibration Kit. These checks are covered in detail on pgs. 303 - 314 of the shop manual TM 1985. I'm will to bet this would identify the problem.

I apologize in advance if I am going into way too much detail. This type of thing just really pisses me off when a dealer leaves the customer hanging like this. They need to get their ass in gear and fix your tractor or provide you another. ....

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kadorken
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 67 Canada
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2003-12-01          70016

When I was having my trouble with the 4310, it wasn't until the mechanic took the tractor for a 20 minute drive and on returning to the shop the 'problem' actually presented itself (almost threw the mechanic over the steering wheel...). Once convinced of the 'problem', resolution was then forthcoming.
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-12-01          70023

I don't know how many hours are on it but I'm curious if the tractor is close to a scheduled hydraulic oil change. I remember that changing the oil on my used tractor cleared up a few hydraulic mysteries but it doesn't have an HST. Small chance I suppose but if an oil change is coming up I'd probably do it sooner than later just in case that might clear up the problem. I keep thinking about reports of metal shavings in the cases of new tractors. Screens and filters are supposed to take them out before going through the pump and into the system but I suppose anything is possible.

Ken: Do you recall what the fix to your tractor was? ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-01          70049

TomG, I'm not sure if you're asking me or if kadorken is also a Ken. If you're asking me, I haven't had any ehydro troubles on my 4310. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-02          70113

Ken or maybe Kens: You're right I should have been more specific. I don't know how kadorken would like to be called in messages, but probably not Kad. Mine was a question for him. It sounded like maybe he had the same problem and a dealer fixed the problem so I was curious what the solution was. Screen names can be a problem for me. For similar reasons I choose to call 'deeremd' 'md.' ....

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topher
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2003-12-03          70186

Well the verdict is in. After they sent the results of all the tests they did to the john deere fix-it guys, they finaly got the go ahead to replace the controler. This part is apparantly worth over $600 canadian, so its no wonder they left it as a last resort. I'll let you know how it runs when I get it back. I am going to check out that vin #, and I hope for their sake, my tractor doesnt fall under the #'s you guys gave. It would have saved a lot of time and effort, both on my part and the dealers, if that info were more readily available. Later. ....

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DRankin
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2003-12-03          70197

That VIN will be laid out on your original bill of sale.

Maybe you can get up a head of steam before you go back to pick it up. ....

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kadorken
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2003-12-03          70249

kadorken === Keith A Dorken (kadorken is the computer userid I have used since 1976 - my fingers can type it faster than ....)


My problem with the 4310 is explained in another thread whose subject is "4310 EHYDRO ISSUE, Post 64792. You can find it using the "Search" facility of the web site (look for subject "4310 ehydro issue" back on 09/24/2003..

In a nutshell, they replaced ALL wiring harnesses on the tractor.
....

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TomG
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2003-12-04          70265

Thanks Keith. I missed your post on the ehydro discussion. I figured I couldn't contribute much to the subject. I do know that digital equipment can be fussy about its connections and glad the wiring solved your problems. Something else to go into our collective info bank here.

I guess KA would have worked better for a guess. Sounds like you've has a screen name longer than I have and I remember Bit Net. Well, I suspect that a '60's SAC communications system some of my barrack mates worked on was an even earlier version. ....

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Chief
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2003-12-08          70522

topher, what is the lastest? Did replacing the controller fix the problem? ....

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Art White
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2003-12-08          70599

Interesting enough, the Kubota intella center costs 199.00 and none have been replaced to anyones knowledge yet at the meeting I just returned from with dealers from all across the country! ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-08          70600

Maybe the dealers who weren't at the meeting were busy replacing Intelli-Centers :) JUST PULLING YOUR LEG ART! I still hate electronics in tractors.
....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-08          70601

To clarify, I hate electronics in tractors but I love the JD MotionMatch feature, which would be difficult to engineer and more expensive without electronics. ....

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Chief
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2003-12-08          70602

Art, the intellicenter and the ehydro/controller system are apples and oranges. I personally don't see the need for what amounts to more or less a bunch of fancy guages. But I suppose some like chocolate and some like vanilla. ....

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Art White
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2003-12-08          70605

There's a lot of sprayers going on to the Grand L's with the cabs for spraying. Speed is critical to be consistant with them. I don't think to many of the dealers miss the meetings. Got some good comparisons as they had a bunch of the other guys tractors there to drive and compare which is very interesting to do. Many people get to do it in different yards and conditions but it's interesting when loaders are all compared together for lifting ability right next to each other so you can not only see the speed but where they stop. To line up differnt makes and have hill climbs to see who's hydro dies out first or who doesn't make it to the top. Guys, I know your happy with your tractors and your dealers, there area differences in them not always seen or recognized. ....

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Art White
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2003-12-08          70607

Ken, being away for most of last week I haven't seen anything on tires whats up? ....

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kwschumm
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2003-12-09          70640

We seem to be in the middle of a typical western Oregon winter - rain, rain, rain. I've used the new tires just a little and so far I like them better than the R4s, but as soft as the ground is right now I need to wait for it to firm up a bit before giving them a good workout. If I drove on it now it would be like driving into a mud bog and sinking. Heck, I can't even walk on the soil without sinking in an inch or two. Trees are falling over right and left in mild 20 mph winds. ....

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