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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-10-29          67499

I need a log splitter and am split (ha ha) between getting a 3-point splitter or a self powered unit. The self powered unit would be more convenient but they cost a lot more. But if I have to add extra hydraulics to the tractor to power the splitter the cost differential converges a bit.

I can't quite wrap my brain around the hydraulics necessary for a 3-point splitter. Am I correct in assuming that it would require a power beyond kit? I already have rear hydraulics for top-n-tilt but I can't see a way to feed a constant flow through those SCVs and the associated diverter valve.


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-29          67504

Some 3 pt. splitters work of the tractor hydraulics. The link I posted shows a 3 pt. splitter that has its own hyd. pump and runs off the tractor pto. I'm thinking the self powered log splitter is going to be the cheapest in the long run. ....


Link:   TRAILERABLE 24 TON LOG SPLITTER

 
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kadorken
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 67 Canada
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2003-10-29          67507

My understanding when I checked with my dealer is you need the Power Beyond kit to provide the continuous flow to log splitters and backhoes.

The power beyond kit is around $333 CDN (not installed - installation looks straight forward however)

I have plans (www.how-to-plans.com) to build a log splitter for 3 pth; unfortunately, this project has progressed only to the point of purchasing the cylinder (on sale) and getting the welder wired up in the shop in preparation of actually building it.
....


Link:   Log Splitter Plans

 
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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2003-10-30          67510

Ken it depends on how much and how fast you need to split wood. If you do not have a lot I'd try the remote hyd first. You can always add a motor and pump later if you need to. Then add a v-belt pulley to run a alternator to run lights so you can work in the cool evenings...

Your remote hyd will run a splitter fine but it will be slower going. You have to have a open center valve on your splitter and bungie cord your remote open. It is very important to ensure you have the correct direction of flow thru you splitter valve.

If you go the power beyond route you'll
loose your 3 pt hitch use.

If you go with the pto pump you'll need a tank.

I am currently building a splitter and will use the power beyond system to run it. If I am unhappy with that I'll get a big motor and pump to run it. Splitter will have its own wheels so I can tow it behind loaded trailer/wagon.

I have laid it out so I can go any route I want with it for power.

We need a hyd's section on this board; DENNIS... ....

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kadorken
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 67 Canada
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2003-10-30          67513

Harvey, can you elaborate on 'you'll loose your 3 pt hitch use'.

Do you mean if you install the PB kit, you can no longer attach things to your 3pth?

or you lose the hydraulics controls to the 3pt while the PB kit is operating the log splitter?

The tractor manual just shows the PB kit as an extension off the rockshaft filter line on the right hand side of the 3pt (as a 'loop' of hydraulic hose)
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-10-30          67517

A poor man's PB kit might be a splitter with hoses long enough to reach the loader curl circuit connects. The curl valve can be 'bungee corded' open to provide continuous flow. PB connections are better and this idea may not be too reliable for curl valves that have fast dump features. It'd work but you wouldn't want the curl valve in the fast dump position. I do the bungee cord thing on a 3rd valve on my loader valve assembly to run my backhoe. I do the steal the curl valve thing to run my forklift, which takes two rear outlets.

Using the loader curl on most valves would disable the 3ph and likely the loader lift as long as it is held open but releasing the valve would restore function. The connection probably adds a bit to the heat load and there's likely some erosion of valve parts but it does work. If it runs my backhoe fast enough it should run a log splitter. Return oil from the splitter valve returns to the loader valve and then either on to the PB line or to the sump through the TANK line depending on valve type. Relief valve protection is provided by the tractor's or loader valve's relief valve and maybe there's a valve on the splitter as well. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-10-30          67520

Just the thought of running a 30 or 40 horsepower engine to get maybe a useable five to 10 horsepower depending on the tractor seems like a waste to me. Lets see what I remember from past experieces of customers, burned out hydraulic valves on one tractor, a JD2950, went thru two valves and 1800 dollars before he went to an engine splitter. He paid for the splitter with the two valves he wore out. Harvey is right on the loss of the three point hitch if that is how you mount it, or it still could be on a trailer and just run long hoses to the trailer and add your five or ten horsepower engine as you realize you still might like to use your tractor to move something else like maybe the wood while splitting. Did wood in the early seventies when we had the first energy crisis watch a lot of other people start out just like this discussion and they come back to the tow behind. The only downfall to a tow behind I've ever heard is who has it now? ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-10-30          67522

With standard PB hookups such as loaders (most loaders also are PB applications) the 3ph won't lift when an auxiliary valve is operated. The same would be true for a splitter. PB flow returns to a manifold block and goes on to the 3ph. PB flow is blocked when a valve is operated.

There are other types of hookups. If the splitter return went directly to the cases the 3ph wouldn't lift until the PB connection was restored. If a single return type valve went back to a manifold block on the 3ph, both the splitter 3ph would operate at the same time but the system would be carrying the combined loads on both. The splitter valve also would have to be PB rated. The meaning of PB beyond is that there is power downstream from a valve and a PB valve has to be designed to withstand operating pressures created by a downstream valve.

I'm with Art I looked at 3ph splitters and decided a standalone would be better, and for me, that was also true for generators, but tractors will run these things. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-10-30          67525

I have seen several machines that had a more workable, permanent way of getting hydraulic power from the loader but not from it's valve.

They had installed a T fitting in both the pressure line and return line and connected a female quick disconnect fitting to that. This way you use the pressure supply for the loader without actually going through the loader valve.

It's very unlikely that you would ever need to use both the loader function and splitter at the same time so the power loss was moot.

The other nifty trick I saw was a guy who had made up a bracket for the loader bucket, the splitter was mounted to a sort of tabletop attached to this hinged bracket and travelled in the bucket upside down, for operation it was flipped over and out by the hinges the bucket. This system had several advantages according to the owner, the bucket mounting provided height adjustment for comfortable working and easy access since it was out in front & not snuggled up to the back of the machine, plus it left the rear area clear to hitch up to a wagon, the work table meant blocks could be manipulated easily for resplitting without having to keep picking them up, it also left room for stacking several blocks at a time next to the splitter.

He claimed it had been used well for several years without any problems.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-30          67526

I may not be thinking things all the way through and figuring all the costs, but I just don't see how you can come out with less money spent than with a stand alone engine driven log splitter. We went through this discussion on 3 pt. vs stand alone generators.

For around $1,000 you could have one sitting in your driveway ready to run. I have had mine for about 10 years and it still works great. When you figure cost of components for a 3 pt. splitter, wear and tear & hours on the tractor and hyd. valves (if used); I think you would be asking for more trouble than it is worth.

Now, I can see where perhaps a pto driven 3 pt. splitter might make some sense, but still all those hours on your tractor cost money. I bet I must have around 300 hours or more on my splitter. No way I would want all those hours on my 4410. 300 hours on a $20,000 tractor have to account for something.

Anyhow ...... some like choclate.......some like vanilla. Don't guess there is any right or wrong way. Just what works best for you. ....

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Chief
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2003-10-30          67531

Here are the specs. & operator's manual for the Tractor Point Best Buy Log Splitter. ;-) ....


Link:   Specs.

 
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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2003-10-30          67533

I've been doing the math too. The box store has a Honda powered splitter that does horizontal and vertical for $1100

The H/V 3 point splitter in the Northern Tool catalog would cost about $850 delivered to my door. I already have a PB kit for the backhoe but I still have to have hoses and fittings rigged up for the connection between the tractor and the splitter.

Just guessing, but I would bet it might cost $100 to $150 parts and labor. Now we are pushing $1000 and what I would have is another 350 pound chunk of metal that I couldn't move without hooking it to the tractor.

And on top of that, I get 15.7 tons of pressure on the three point unit vs. 20 tons for the one on wheels. And (Ken, take note...) the 3 point unit is rated for 2500 MAX psi and the 4310-4710's make 2500 system psi.

That is right on the bubble.

So for me, maybe I can save $100 but I get less power, less mobility and I might be over-pressurizing the unit.

If I go with the self power unit I have another engine to maintain, but whats new there? ....

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Art White
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2003-10-30          67535

Murf, what he did would be the same as hooking to a tractor that didn't have a loader and we call it a power beyond, he was hooked up to the same line giving the full hydraulic system power to the splitter not counting the loss of hydraulic power from couplings to get the job done. I still would not want to tie up a tractor and loader when maybe I might need the tractor to move the wood split or in blocks from, or to the splitter without having to connect and disconnect or even just to have to deal with appendages from the tractor. I've seen these units mounted to the lift arms of a loader, your freinds idea of the bucket is the first time I've heard of it and it does sound nice if you have a quick disconnect bucket and leave it attached all the time to that bucket. I still feel it is a waste of fuel and equipment to do it with a tractor. Besides that when they first introduced the three point splitters a lot of people came into buy them and did for tractors like the Ford 5000, wrong at 7 gallons per minute max there wasn't much wood getting split on weekends and as a dealer even if new and unused look at 1/2 trade-in value. About 350 is the max I've seen these sell for and in new condition. I've never seen a used tow behind in needing to haul away condition go below 400 much less then one that has had any care that will draw double that. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-10-30          67544

I agree with the idea of a stand alone unit being superior in many ways. I personally prefer a stand alone unit.

However, in the case of a person who needs (or wants) to take a splitter and trailer or wagon to the site with a tractor, or for someone who only has a need for a splitter a few hours a year, it is sometimes preferable to use a tractor-powered unit. There is not the same problems with stale gas or gummed up carburators on a 3pth unit either.

Price is only comparitively close between the two styles when you add in the big markups of retailers and the disparity of the economy of scale. If you were to build your own unit, as a single shot deal, the price would be very different between the two. I know because I just made one up for a friend of the family recently.

The retail cost of a power pack is substantial, a 5hp Honda & pump setup is about $650, if you step up to a 9hp it is $900, and a 11hp is $1200. When you add in the extra cost of frame, wheels, etc., on top of that again there is certainly an arguement to be made for going with a tractor-powered unit.

Chief had it down best, but I want a Rocky Road please....

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-30          67547

Mark, here are some more log splitters with FREE shipping. ....


Link:   click here

 
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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-10-30          67554

OK, you guys convinced me. I always knew the standalone unit would be more convenient but didn't know the costs would work out to be so close. This way I can haul wood to and from the splitter while a buddy splits it. For the small cost premium it seems worthwhile. And as pointed out I wouldn't have to screw around with modifying hydraulics or put hours on an expensive tractor to do a relatively simple task. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-10-30          67562

Ken, be sure to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, sometimes the cheapest unit is NOT the least expensive one.

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-10-30          67564

Thanks, Murf. If there's one thing I hate it is CHEAP equipment. I don't mean inexpensive, I mean poorly made and throwaway tools or tools that do damage in the process of doing a job. I'm pricing some Timberwolf splitters now. The Harbor Freight unit Chief provided a link for may be OK but I'm a bit biased against the low-end B&S small engines. A few weeks ago there was an ebay auction for a brand new Speeco splitter by a dealer an hour south of me who was going out of business. It went for around $700 and I'm kicking myself now for not bidding on it. Even at $900 it would have been a good price for a brand new high quality unit that I wouldn't have had to ship. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2003-10-30          67579

When you hook up an open center circuit to the tractors Power Beyond plumbing all the oil is dirverted thru that and not ot the 3ph system.

I'm building this from a 8" H beam, which will be reinforced, 9' long wedge is 1 1/4" thick stock 12" high 10" deep. the cylinder is a 4X24 with a 2" dia shaft the valve is 20 gpm. It will be a substancial splitter and when I add the removable 4 way wedge it will take some muscle.

I'm designing it so that for now I can use the PB from tractor with the ability to up grade to a 14-16 hp with 20 gpm two stage pump. As murf said the power and pump unit will be $1200+. I may be able to get by with a smaller power unit but my brothers is a 12hp 16gpm and it struggles in some maple and he bent his 6" beam 2 years ago.

Most are right you can buy one cheaper but you will not come close to this unit, store bought. This is for knotty, limby maple and beech. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-10-30          67580

Harvey, the depth of the web on an H beam is only part of what makes it strong and resisitant to flex. The thickness of the steel it is made from is critical, 12" beam with a thin web cross-section will not be as strong as a 6" beam with a real thick meaty cross-section. Structural beams are rated by either web thickness or their weight by the foot, both of which are substantial measurements by which to judge a beams strength.

I would put a pressure guage on your brother's splitter too, something of that size shouldn't bog down in a gnarly piece of maple.

Force of the stroke is purely a mathematical relationship between X psi of fluid, Y surface area of the piston. Flow rates only determine stroke speed at which that pressure can be maintained.

Best of luck. ....

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harvey
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2003-10-31          67603

Good thought Murf. His beam was 3/16 material if I remember right. It was a store bought build it you self package. I don't think there is anything left of the store bought components left except maybe the wedges.

I'm using 3/8 and will reinforce the bottom web with 4" 3/8 angle. The web is 8" also.

I'm NOT a engineer so I tend to over build most stuff. Plus the prices for the raw materials is right. Left overs going to the scrap pile at work, but it it is all new steel.

I'm not a commercial cutter and only do 20 or so face cords a season BUT I hate slow cycles and wasted motion. So the 4 way is important and having enough muscle to move maple and beech thru it.

Gotta send Dennis a note we need a hydraulics section on the board... ....

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kadorken
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-10-31          67606

My purchased plans for a log splitter call for 6" x 6" 25# I beam for the main spar. This is for a 20 ton hydraulic load.
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-10-31          67617

Quite a few good comments here. I think everybody understands the PB hookup that same way. I also see some chance for confusion so I'll hit the subject again because I remember myself sorting this stuff out and maybe what will pop out is that I've got some more learning to do.

My loader PB line goes to a manifold and on to the 3ph. Either the loader or the 3ph operates. The 3ph stops working if any loader valve is active. I think this is a fairly common connection. If the PB line returned to the reservoir the 3ph would never work and I'd have to a change a diverter valve back and forth. That type hook up sometimes is used to operate an auxiliary valve that isn't PB rated. My loader valve is a two return port type and the loader-cylinder exhaust oil is carried by the second return line that goes directly to the reservoir. In single return port types the exhaust oil goes back into the PB line. In such a connection if the loader and 3ph are operated at the same time the 3ph will lift as long as the loader is moving. The exhaust oil operates the 3ph.

Murf's idea of the t'ed connection is pretty good and oil wouldn't run through the loader valve. If the t's are in the high pressure and PB lines then it works as long as the loader has a heavier load than the splitter, and both valves need to be operated. Two open centered valves connected in parallel each have an open PB line back to the reservoir. Pressure can't be developed unless both are closed. Operating a valve on each valve assembly blocks the high-pressure line and opens passages to the cylinders. It creates a tandem cylinder connection and the lightest load moves first.

As I said, I think everybody here understands the same thing and I hope this is at least interesting to some people. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-10-31          67624

Tom, unless I misread your comment, or the coffee just hasn't kicked in yet, either of which are posiible, I think you have a small error in there.

You said "Two open centered valves connected in parallel each have an open PB line back to the reservoir. Pressure can't be developed unless both are closed."

I think you are confusing a PB line with a reservoir line. The PB line has and holds full relief valve set pressure until it gets back to the reservoir, only then does it get dumped and all pressure is lost.

It doesn't matter if there is 6 PB lines between pump & reservoir, they all have & keep full pressure in a 'hands off' situation.

Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2003-10-31          67628

Murf, the bad part of these three point is the time of use is about once a year and other wise they sit around and draw condensation, seen some pretty ugly looking oil from them as well as the self-contained splitters. Timberwolf is one of the better splitters we sell. The other favorite tough guy in this area is the American. They only build with six inch I beam, only seen a three point vertical unit bent that was dragged, largest engine used is a 12 horsepower. One thing that people seem to want to do is have these big units, I found I like fast cycle times and the Americans slowest time is 13 seconds and the faster is about 6 seconds on the 12 horse model with a 22gpm pump. Now they do this up to 48" wood for the outdoor furnaces, this is built different from the others as they use a 4x6 tube on this one with 1/2"wall. This unit also comes with a loader as it doesn't stand vertical. ....

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Murf
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2003-10-31          67645

Art, I think I'm missing something here. I've never seen a 3pth splitter that had a reservoir, or one that was not hooked up by quick-disconnect lines.

That being the case how can condensation get into the system, it is sealed until the lines are connected at which point it is only connected to the tractor's hyd. system.

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-10-31          67666

Art, are the American splitters you referred from a local manufacturer in your area? I couldn't find 'em on the web. ....

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TomG
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2003-10-31          67670

Murf: You are right and it's good to point out these things. I think it's a terminology thing. I really think PB is a bum term that mostly adds to confusion and I had some.

I used PB line in the sense of a line connected to a valve assembly's PB port. If you stick with the concept, it wouldn't be a PB line unless it goes to the inlet of another valve. Irrespective, all flow goes back to the reservoir eventually and if downstream valve is not operated a PB line effectively is open to the reservoir. Since an idle valve assembly is open from the inlet to the PB port there is open flow from the pump to the reservoir.

So here's how I understand it: If two valve assemblies are connected in parallel by a t-fitting in a line from a pump, then there are open paths to the reservoir through each valve--provided no downstream valves are closed. Operating either valve blocks the high-pressure line to that valve and opens ports to the cylinders. Ordinarily the cylinders would work against load and pressure would be developed ahead of the control valve all the way back to the pump. Oil would flow into the pressure side of the cylinders as it moved and exhaust oil would flow out of the passive side to the reservoir. However, the open path to reservoir provided by the second valve would prevent pressure from being developed. Operating a control valve on both assemblies would block each leg and divert flow to cylinders connected to each control valve in a tandem hookup and the lightest load would move.

Always happy if I'm wrong about something because it's one thing less to learn and maybe there are a few wrong things here too. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-31          67674

Have you guys seen this splitter? Click on Rankin under vendors, then log splitters. ....


Link:   click here

 
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kadorken
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 67 Canada
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2003-11-01          67742

Arg. Their web site re-adjusts your web browser to full screen. This is a no-no as far as I am concerned. Web pages have no business adjusting your window layout.

Scratch that vendor from my list ....

....

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itsgottobegreen
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2003-11-02          67801

Will you guy quit messing around with these small stand alone and tractor mounted log spilters. Just get a fire wood processor. Does all the work for you,loads the 20; log, cuts it, spilts it, and piles it. Theres a guy near me, who had one, it will split a cord of wood while you wait in 20 minutes. It evens will loaded it right into you truck. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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Chief
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2003-11-02          67802

itsgottobegreen, I take it that you ARE kidding right???? ;-) ....

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Blueman
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2003-11-03          67880

After reading this thread; I'm "worried". The 3ph log splitter that came with my used TC45D was used by me the first time this weekend. I hooked it up the way the original owner did, with a bungee cord holding the rear valve open...it did seem somewhat slow, and I had to operate the tractor at about 1400 RPM...I started to wonder whether the hours on my tractor was worth the amount of wood I split. And now I'm wondering if I am "hurting" the valve by using a bungee cord...thoughts? ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-03          67925

Just got the brochure on Timberwolf log splitters. Their cheapest model is $1800! Holy Bat Guano! I don't think so....
....

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Chief
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2003-11-03          67926

Ken, that $899 Tractor Point Best Buy Special is looking better all the time. Those splitter sell out fast at that price. ....

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JParker
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2003-11-03          67931

I assume a similar thought process would go for 3PH chipper shreaders? Although there wouldn't be any of the hydraulic concerns, I had thought that having it handy on the tractor would be nice, and have plenty of power.

No more wimpy chippers... ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-03          67932

A good chipper requires a lot more horsepower than a log splitter. I'm buying a 3-point chipper, and justify it because a) a standalone 30 hp chipper is thousands more than a 3-point chipper, and b) some of the hours spent chipping would otherwise be used to move the slash to a burn pile. ....

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liljoe
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2003-11-03          67939

i dont know where u can buy them but i have a log splitter that runs off my pto. it looks like a large cork screw. u just push the log into it and it splits it. it splits faster than and hyd slpitter i have every used. although a little dangerous it works fabulous. i have 2 of them and saw 1 for sale at a new holland dealer about 2 years ago for sale i think it was $300.00 used. joe ....

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JParker
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2003-11-04          67941

I believe this calls for a link to topic #47... ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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Murf
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2003-11-04          67955

We have a BIG chipper, and I mean big (see pic. #4) but we also have some smaller ones too.

The one we most commonly use is a tow-behind self-powered unit but it is still WAY more than a homeowner would ever need. We do have one small 3PTH unit though for small jobs, it is a 6" capacity unit made in Finland by a company called Patu (they also make an awesome little 3pth PTO-powered firewood processor that is only $8,000). It works great but unless you have a LOT of chipping to do on a regular basis it is still debatable whether it worth it for a homeowner to buy one.

In this area a decent 3pth chipper will cost about $4,000.00 to buy. As an alternative, you can rent a big stand alone unit that will do about 3 or 4 times the amount of material in the same time as the 3pth unit for about $175 a day and a lot of places will let you pick it up on Friday just before closing and let you keep it till Monday morning for a 1 day charge.

If you consider the purchase price alone, and forget about maintenance costs, depreciation, etc., you would need to run the chipper probably 5 days a year before you even got to the breakeven price.

Whereas if you rent a seldom used item like that then you only pay for the time it is running and can use your money to buy something you will use all the time.

The same thing applies to firewood, if you buy a bunch of expensive equipment just to make firewood the savings on your heat bill had better be substantial or you wont actually save anything.

Best of luck. ....

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Murf
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2003-11-04          67958

Tom, sorry I missed your post back there.

I think you are still a little foggy on the two valves in parallel thing.

The important part of this concept to remember is that the system can be basically divided into two distinct portions 1) pressurized or power, and 2) return or dump. If you think of it in this fashion it is easier to visualize.

When you have two valves (open center in this example) in parallel then you have full system pressure from the pump, through the lines and the valves and back to the system relief valve where it gets dumped back into the reservoir.

Now, if we move one valve what happens, some oil is diverted in the moving valve to the working side of a cylinder and the piston displaces some fluid from the passive side of the cylinder which is dumped straight back to the reservoir. None of this however has ANY affect on the other valve or it's ability to do work other than the fact that the demand on the pump may exceed it's ability to maintain enough pressure or flow rate.

Maybe you are confusing valves in series with parallel. If two valves were inline with each other the first one to move would starve all others downstream, as is the case of a FEL on a machine with no PB port equipped valve, when you move the loader valve you would lose 3pth function until the FEL valve was released.

Clear as mud, huh ? LOL

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-04          67960

I suppose whether or not a homeowner needs a big, powerful chipper depends on the homeowner. If a guy has a house with acres of trees that need to be removed it's a lot easier to justify a decent chipper.

In our situation we have more than 1000 trees to remove so a chipper is easy to justify. When the need is gone it can be sold.

I've ordered a cheap Jinma chinese 3ph chipper that is supposed to chip up to 6" material at a very reasonable price less than $1800 delivered, including a spare parts kit (belts, blades, etc). $1800 is a lot cheaper than renting when considering the lengthy period of time required to thin our trees. When it arrives in early December I'll post a report after using it for awhile. ....

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Murf
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2003-11-04          67966

Ken, I understand what you are saying, you & I are not exactly 'average' when it comes to the quantity of trees.

However, based on a LOT of experience I don't think you will be very impressed with a 3pth chipper of any size or make. The size rating of any chipper is a MAXIMUM size of the opening that the wood must pass through. So if for instance, you have a 3" piece, with a 1.5" stub of branch on each side, it will barely go in. Likewise a 4" twisty piece will be a struggle.

If you are planning on completely removing tree and stump for that quantity of trees you would be far better of getting your hands on a Meri Crusher or the like. In most areas dealers will rent you one and a tractor, you need BIG power, as a package by the day, week, or month.

We have the same problem clearing land for a golf course, sometimes a shredder is better, sometimes clearing the trees and removing the stumpps is better, but 1000 small trees in 'plantation form shouldn't be more than a couple of days work.

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-04          67971

Murf, I'd love to own or rent a Tim Taylor style 200 hp chipper/shredder. This thinning project will probably take me a couple of years, though, and since I have a real job I have to do this part time. You know, half a weekend day here and a few evening hours there. Rental is not feasable in this kind of operation because picking up and returning the chipper will leave no time for real work. Speed will not be a major concern as long as the chipper can chip as fast as I can wield the chainsaw. I understand what you're saying about the 6" capacity, but even the $4000 units that you mentioned and I've looked at (valby, bearcat) are generally 5" or less.

Who knows? In a month or two I may put a for sale sign on my 3ph chipper and be back here posting "murf was right"! If that happens at least I'd be able to better justify a $10k expenditure for a big honkin tow-behind chipper. ....

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Murf
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2003-11-04          67978

Actually Ken, the depreciation on those mid-sized tow-behind units is such that you could buy a decent 20 year old unit that will do what you want for about two grand and sell it afterwards for the same amount.

Because of the volume of work that we do with one we turn them over regularly. What we do is buy them out of the rental fleet at one of the dealers we buy from, we then run it one year and sell it. The depreciation we get hit with is less than buying one new and running it into the ground. Also, if we get real busy we can add a second or even third unit to the fleet for the duration of the job.

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-04          67979

I'm not sure where you find those good deals on used equipment. I've been looking for about six months around here and the cheapest commercial style used chipper I've found was about $5k and it needed an engine rebuild (Ford gas engine). If I could find one for around $2k I'd cancel my order on the Jinma and snap it up. ....

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TomG
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2003-11-04          67992

Murf: I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Our meanings of connected in parallel likely are different. Here's what I think I've learned about this stuff--always ready to learn more though.

A basic concept is that pumps develop flow but not pressure. Loads develop pressure. Flow in a single open center valve assembly with no control valve open goes through from the inlet to outlet port with only hose and orifices providing load. Working pressure is around 100 lbs. and pump rpm makes little difference. Significant pressure isn't developed until a control valve is operated, which closes passages between the inlet and outlet ports and opens ports to the cylinder. The pump working against weight on the cylinder develops sufficient pressure to a move a load, and no greater pressure can be developed. All flow is directed to the pressure side of a double acting cylinder.

What I was thinking is if a simple t-fitting was placed in a pressure line and hooked to the inlet of a second valve assembly where the outlet had an unimpeded path to the reservoir then there'd be a second low load path to the reservoir through either valve assembly. Operating a valve on one assembly should divert all flow through the second assembly since flow would take the path of least resistance. The way I understand it is that there'd still a low load path and significant pressure wouldn't be developed unless valve on both assemblies were operated. I think various devices other than a t-fitting could operate both valves more or less independently. Could be wrong too and I could post some flow diagrams 'cause I may not be describing this clearly. ....

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Murf
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2003-11-04          67996

Tom, I believe you have two basic flaws in your theory.

First, the system is pressurized to full working pressure all the way back to the dump valve, there is nowhere in the pressure side that the pressure is 100 psi, unless the engine is only turning on the starter and not running. You are correct that there is no pressure without a load, the relief valve set to stay closed until there is say 2,000psi against it IS that load. If the pump is creating 2,000psi, then the ENTIRE prssure side of the system has 2,000psi. What you are tthinking is more along the lines of a water pump, there is no resticion to speak of so pressure is minimal until you turn of the flow, then it rises to the releif valve setting. In the case of a hydraulic system, there should be two relief valves, one in the pump to prevent overload (usually set just slightly higher than system pressure), and a system valve to maintain working pressure. Pump rpm is only inlolved as to how much flow it can keep producing at that pressure.

Second, there should never be a time when the fluid has an 'unimpeded' flow back to the reservoir, it must always flow into & out of a cylineder or motor or some other device first, doing it's work, then dump to the reservoir. Fluid is like electricity, it takes the path of least resistance, if there were two routes to the resevoir and one involved work, it would take the other path and you would get nothing.

I will try to find the website that explains it all VERY well and link to it.

Best of luck. ....

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TomG
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2003-11-05          68028

Well, I'll simplify what I'm saying a little more. To me a t-fitting with an open leg in a pressure line ahead of a valve would be like having a large leak in the line. Oil would run on the ground and the valve wouldn't work. Connecting a hose from the reservoir to the open leg wouldn't change much. The oil would just leak to the reservoir.

A question is what changes if a valve were installed in the line from the fitting to the reservoir? I don't think much changes because oil flows straight through an open centre valve that isn't operated. There can't be pressure developed without flow restrictions and I don't believe open centres are very restrictive. Around 100 lbs. load is what I've heard. Otherwise the engine would be working against relief valve pressure when everything was idle and the relief valve would be open. That's the way some closed centre systems work.

Two paths that go ultimately to the reservoir through open centre valves would be in parallel and the load would be less than any single path irrespective of whether one valve had a high load path because a control valve was operated. A decent question seems to be: Where are the restrictions that develop pressure if neither valve is operated or even if one is operated?

Additional restrictions to create load would have to be downstream from the valves and on both paths. Another question is what would be connected downstream? Far as I know if anything it usually would be another open centre valve such as the 3ph. To me a path through an open centre valve is little more restrictive than a straight hose and that is little more than an open leak to the ground. Were this not the case, I don't see that diverter valves which switch between 3ph and auxiliary systems would be needed.

Myself, I just don't see where the load comes from in a parallel connection unless control valves in both paths are operated. I'd be happy to see any info that explains so I can see it differently. ....

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TomG
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2003-11-06          68114

I've been wondering what the problem is here since the description of principles seems fairly sound all around. I think it's terminology. My 'around 100 lbs.' number could be part of the problem. My books only say 'low pressure,' which I take to be something considerably less than typical pressures under load. The 100 lbs. came from a discussion about old Fords and may have been true for those tractors or it may have been an arbitrary example of low pressure.

My problem is that 'system pressure' and especially 'full system pressure' means something a bit above relief valve pressure to me. Change both the '100 lbs.' and the 'system pressure' to something like base system pressure or load and maybe there's agreement.

I do think it's true that in a parallel connection without intervening structures such as proportioning valves the max pressure of one leg would be limited to the base load of the other leg unless a valve were operated. The base load could vary quite a bit depending on the particular system. ....

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Murf
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2003-11-06          68122

I need to get my hands on one of our shop manuals, I recall doing some testing some time back on one of our FEL valves and got a little over 1500psi at idle on the PB output port.

I believe that in some of the older tractors, Jubilee's, 9N's, etc., there was no relief valve other than the one in the pump itself.

In newer equipment I was taught there was a 'system relief' valve, which is externally adjustable as opposed to internal to the pump and not adjustabe without disassembly. This also improves performance of the system since there is no lag time while the pump builds pressure between itself and the load, it also keeps the fluid at operating temp. in cold weather because of the load-induced heating of the fluid passing through the system.

Best of luck. ....

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