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Green Vs Orange Green looses Again

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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-08-11          61585

Well I just love to watch big litigous corps fall on their rear ends. Kubota is right up there with the best of them fileing suits left and right. They have had several judgements banning greys upheld by the US court of appeals in recent months. In todays news JD the mighty green meanie brought suit against Kubota for patent infringement in regards to the lawn tractor line. Last year JD lost that suit. They of course appealed but the court of appeals came back with two thumbs down on deere. The more I learn about theese two the less fond I am am of either one.

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Art White
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2003-08-11          61590

Why? ....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-11          61604

I dunno. In America everyone sues anyone for no particular reason, and corporations aren't any different - they just have bigger budgets than most individuals. If any entity holds a patent they think was infringed upon it has to be defended, which nearly always turns into a lawsuit. If you don't defend a patent you lose it.

I heard a statistic that one in three small business are sued each year for something so it's not just big business. There are just too many lawyers on the planet.
....

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Art White
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2003-08-12          61621

Last nite when I first saw this I sat and started typing, I would have filled a page easily as I am aware of this litigation as many in the past. For Kubota to have trouble with the Gray market tractors I understand that as I have a couple of them in my area and have been told I have a bad parts department because my partsmen couldn't find there part off a tractor model we didn't have on our list of tractors sold in this country! Fine, we went the extra, I couldn't find a reason to buy the tractor to begin with for the northeast. It used gear oil in the hydraulics which took 45 minutes to warm up so he could use the loader. Do we need to wonder why Kubota doesn't want to be resposible for those tractors. He even wrote Kubota several times trying to get them to take reponsibility of fixing the tractor for him! I to was told I was inconsiderate and was a losey dealer! I asked him about the dealer who sold it to him, he's just a great guy, sold him the loader too! Enough on that one, take a look who is sueing one company for patent problems after the other, and losing most! To bad when they win it normally is thru a loop hole or something unusual but gives them new rights to another companies products. I've watched this for over 30 years and it's the same thing over and over year after year with them. I to am dissapointed with them. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-12          61634

Art, I guess I didnt understand the Why ? question. You can view the abrieviated article at www dot agriculture dot com. The catalyst of the suit was front suspension deseign and patent infringement. Most noteable to me is how poorly the big 2 are behaveing. I just hate companys that have the "lets sue em" mentality. I think its not much of a stretch to say both JD and Kubota are VERY worried about retaining their market share. We know for a fact Kubota wants to stop the Grays dead in their tracks and has prevailed in every action includeing appeals. I do understand their point. No one is in buisiness to compete with themselves. I do think that Kubota has caught right up to JD on a price point basis. With the banning of grays this leaves a whole new market wide open. This is a good thing ( I Think ) for the consumer. We will start to see better quality off brands at better prices, like Kioti, Eicher, Branson, Century, Long Agribuisiness and my current favorite Mahindra. I have not seen the mahindra but I can not bring myself to want to buy a Korean tractor. I am not busting on Kubota at all that is just me personally and my individual choice. The Mahindra is made in India. I do feel that both the korean and Indian machines will offer far better quality and value over the chineese machines. One thing is for sure, the future will tell one way or the other. ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-12          61639

Rule of thumb #1...... Anybody with fifty bucks and a map to the courthouse can sue anybody for anything.

#2... Court decisions are just that, decisions. They don't have to be right, and many times are just flat wrong, but it is a decision and that is that.

Most of the time you would be better off just tossing dice. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-12          61642

Good gravy, don't I know that's the truth ! ....

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Art White
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2003-08-12          61664

Doc, years ago IH built a model 720 plow, was built using parts that fit the prior model 710 and before that 700. We still use many of the same parts today. JD the big innovative company that it is comes out with the model 2500,today in this area those plows have more red parts on them then green as the whole trip unit was an identical copy of the IH. I can go on about others that are the same way with the same company over patent infringement. Cub Cadet's new 6 wheeler and the way JD was sueing Howard Price company for patent infringement that was also thown out of court. Look at the two as I have both in my yard and tell me how they could twist it to say they copied!!! They would have done well to have copied the howard price unit like the IH plow for the way it was built, It's twice a Gator! This is a side of the big Green machine that not everyone knows and it is frustrating to watch them polish themselves up with other peoples work. They totally infuriate me and I know the lawyers wouldn't do it unless told to so it goes back to the big green boys offices. If they were half of claimed they wouldn't need to be sueing everyone! I'm very frustrated with a company the size of them and they have to steal from others. I'm not impressed with there marketing people. Just because it's new to them doesn't mean it's new to the industry! Often they are the last guys to have some features on there tractors, but they boast ALL NEW maybe ten years ago! I've ranted enough I've got to get on to making a better day, sorry guys. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2003-08-12          61670

Sounds like Microsoft except I like John Deere a LOT better than Microsoft.
....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-08-12          61671

Unfortunately this whole atmosphere of litigate against anyone for doing anything has FORCED corporate America into joining in.

The way it works is 'professional' shareholders sue the corporation & it's management if they even PERCEIVE the company may not be acting in the best interest of shareholders.

The result is that if Company 'X' thinks Company 'Y' is making a competing 'widget' to their own cheaper because they 'borrowed' some design ideas at the expense of THEIR R&D budget, they COMMENCE litigation rather than FACING it.

I think it was covered in my Business Admin. courses pretty thoroughly, it was called "COVER YOUR ASS".

Best of luck. ....

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Misenplace
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Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-08-12          61681

I think the folks at both the green and orange offices been sniffin way too much of each others paint. Meanwhile new comers will start to eat up a bigger part of the market share as consumers get tired of the non sense. It reminds me of Harley Davidson in the early 80's. The only company I know of in history that successfully lost 80 + % of their market share to the rice grinders. I say successfully because they managed to stay in buisines. ....

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Chief
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2003-08-12          61684

On the radio today I heard the John Deere posted a 68% increase in earnings this quarter mainly do to compact and lawn mower as well as impliment sales. With all the good financing available, all the tractor manufacturers are probably selling more than usual. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-12          61685

Doc, I think you're right but maybe indirectly.

I don't think the average buyer is aware of all the lawsuits so they don't really care about 'em. But they do care about price. To the extent that the lawsuits increase the price of their toys, through both legal and licensing fees, it just has to negatively affect sales. That will increase market opportunity for those who don't play that game. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-12          61686

No suprise that Deere is up this year do to the contracts with the Home Deput. I am not so sure about all the others. No doubt Kubota will do well as they were on their game with the financeing. Some of the others like AGCO came to the party a little late. At this point I am no longer sure that even 0% will push more sales. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-12          61688

Kws, good point. I assume though average is the average of all JD consumers for example. The vast majority by sheer number will be lawn mower purchasers, and then I agree completely. But as the cost of the item goes up I think that the consumer is more aware, imagine the cost increases on commercial JD stuff, Hitachi and all the other labels they own...YIKES ! ....

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Art White
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2003-08-14          61810

Murf, with your background have you seen Howard Price's equipment? They build some pretty well built stuff mainly high end mowers. Deere came after them a few years back on there six wheeler for a patent infingement. Price was going to give up and not build them any more as they had no market share at all to speak of. I think that was more of JD's effort to intimidate them on a marinally profitable line to get them out of the market place. The boys at Cadet were having a ton of trouble with the grizzlys they were tring to sell and they stepped into the lawsuit and took over for Price and they did win and that is how Cadet got involved with them.. The Price unit started at 10,100. Out of the market as far as price but one tough unit. Cadet got the price down and they have a sweet unit to sell. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-08-14          61823

There's no doubt that Price builds top-notch stuff, but we couldn't get away with putting a rotary mower on a course, reels only 'doncha know, otherwise Biff & Muffy get all upset and it throws them off their game, LOL. Although I do have a couple of those 'Milk Machines' they build in your backyard.

Gerry Brouwer is a neighbour of mine and so we mostly run Brouwer gang-reel mowers on the commercial turf crop (his harvestors and handlers too) as well as any active courses we have custody of.

Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-14          61832

THe trend here has been to the rotary mowers for all the roughs and a lot of the fairways at this point. There are a lot people parking those reels, I can understand your allegiance to the reels. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-14          61834

Murf, Forgot to ask, I take it you meant Ferris's, how do you like them? ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-08-14          61840

Art, yes I meant Ferris, it's just our family have been customers of the Ferris family since we actually bought milking machines from the Uebler Milking Machine Company.

Today we use mainly ProCut 30's, usually with the 61" deck, but some 72's. We have been using ProCut's for many years and have proven generally indestructable and about as dependable as gravity.

We did get a new IS 5000 Z this spring though and I must say I was VERY impressed with it, my GM came by the house and had it on the trailer, so I had to take it for a test-drive. The suspension is awesome!! It tears through grass like nothing else. The muscle that baby has is hard to imagine in a mower, I took it across the street for a trial on my neighbours place, they back into a river and so have some good hills. One hill in particular is a bear to cut, the only way their hydro rider will cut it is top to bottom, this thing FLEW up that hill.

Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-14          61850

We sell quite a few in a year. They do work well. We've been having fun with the Kubota Z's as they are pretty healthy units when you put them side by side. ....

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Murf
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2003-08-14          61854

We also have the 'Bota ZD and it is a very good machine, but the suspension on the Ferris is, IMHO, a little better and the extra HP is 'seat-of-the-pants' noticeable.

I have not personally put them side by side, but my staff has, so far the opinions are running roughly 50/50. The better suspension leads to faster travel speed which can result in a less than perfect cut, and the 'Bota definitely still has better deck suspension. The Ferris is also about 450 pounds heavier but still about 3 mph faster, and the ZD has only a 8 gal. fuel tank while the Ferris has twin 6.5 gal. tanks for a 13 gal. total capacity.

While this doesn't seem like much difference at first, in the 'real world' 3 mph is a big difference if you have to travel very far to get fuel, or have a LOT of light cutting to do and the ground is super smooth. We often cut flat out for extended periods. Also, having an extra 5 gal. onboard means having to fill-up a LOT less often, in fact it will run all day on a single fill. Down-time is not paid time, as I'm sure you're painfully aware.

Best of luck. ....

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