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I think I miss my steel hood

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-08-11          61517

My new 4115 is LOUD. On the verge of painfully loud.

I could start and run my 4100 for short periods of time without any problems and only had to wear hearing protection for extended operation at higher RPM's.

It is clear that that ain't working with the new tractor. Just standing next to it when it idles makes my ears ring.

The only significant difference between the two is that the 4100 had a steel hood and the 4115 has a plastic hood.

I don't think the increased racket is coming from the change in horsepower (20 vs. 24) or the direct vs. indirect method of fuel injection. The mufflers appear to be the identical and are routed the same way.

Is it possible that polymer hood could increase the sound levels that much?

I am going to do some experiments with sound deadening materials to see if I can tone it down to a more comfortable level.


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Art White
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2003-08-11          61521

Sorry to hear that Mark! Well maybe, the plactic should be the quieter of the two by far. I won't go any further at this point other than to say to look for something loose and some adjustments to the hood to tighten it up. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-11          61524

I think the only thing that deadens sound is mass, but my (often wrong) intuition is that it shouldn't make much difference. Sound travels through air and it's not like the hood has an airtight seal. It would be interesting to pop the hood on your 4115 and measure the sound level with a sound level meter, then do the same with the 4100.
....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-11          61527

By the way, if you're interested in doing that test I'd be happy to send you my trusty Radio Shack sound level meter for a week or two to experiment with.
....

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DRankin
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2003-08-11          61531

Art, I have driven two 4115's and both sounded the same. The first one had a fiberglass canopy and I chaulked up the extra noise to that.

I have looked for loose manifolds and such but everything looks tight and ship-shape there.

The sound has a hard edge to it like you would expect if the muffler was a totally empty steel shell.
....

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DRankin
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2003-08-11          61532

Ken, thanks for the offer. The 4100 is gone so I don't have anything to compare it with...... but if I can figure out another way of comparing I will certainly give you a holler. A quiet and subdued holler. ....

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Chief
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2003-08-11          61539

Mark, I am not sure if this will help make a noticable difference but I too noticed the load sound of the 4410 engine (the loudness of the ignition knock). I tried adding some Power Servic fuel additive in the silver bottle in proportions enough to raise the cetane rating 6 points according to the instructions. Maybe it is all in my head and wishful thinking but I noticed a good drop in the loudness and severeity of the ignition knock. I looked up what John Deere states as the preferred fuel and they specified 50 cetane #2 diesel. Europe is the only place I know where that is sold. We are lucky if we get 40 - 45 cetane fuel. If you haven't already, you may want to try it and see if it makes a difference. I found a fuel additive dealer in Ft. Wayne, IN that sells a good fuel additive for $40 for a 5 gal. pail but the shipping brings it to $95. Even at $95, it is a little cheaper than the Power Service at Walmart. I have not tried it yet but alot of guys over on turbo diesel register use it and like it. I may order a pail after I have used up the additive I have on hand. It would be interesting to see if it does make a difference for you. Your hearing must be alot better than mine. After 21 years of being around helicopter and flight line equipment, I am sure my hearing is not what it used to be. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-11          61543

Mark, is it an injection knock like what Chief is refering to? If so there are plenty of additives to help it clear other then getting into pump timing. Could this be listed as a high cost of ownership? ....

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boatman
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2003-08-11          61549

I believe that the Direct Injected engines have a distinct exhaust sound (bark) as compared to the Indirect Injected engines. A very impressive sound actually,but I can understand that prolonged exposure could be tiresome. If the hood does not have any insulation on the underside - you could probably add some and should make a noticeable difference.

....

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DRankin
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2003-08-11          61550

I wondered if going from an indirect to a direct injection was part of this.

It is like a sharp knock or bark, not the mellow chortling I was getting from the 4100.

I have already tried the fuel additive route, but only at minimal levels. Maybe a higher concentration to up the cetane levels will help.

Also noteworthy is the fact that there is only six hours on the engine. Nowhere near broken-in. ....

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Murf
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2003-08-11          61557

Mark, I think the Direct/Indirect injection change has more to do with it than you think.

It was something pickup truck designers had real problems with at first, trying to keep engine noise to a minimum in the cab with modern direct injection diesels was a bear of a thing to get a handle on.

If that's what it is, and it sounds like it from your description, it will get a little better as the engine breaks in.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-11          61563

Well, I don't think the hood material plays a part. I used some old towel to cover the hood and there was no change in the sound transmission.

Next step: more cetane improver/fuel additive and that helped a bit. It is now about as loud as the BX.

maybe it needs break-in time. ....

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Chief
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2003-08-11          61566

Mark, are there any fuel dealers near you that sell B-100? B-100 is usually 50 cetane or higher. Not very cheap but it may burn with a bit less noise. The best prices I have seen lately are around $1.90 per gallon. At least you can enjoy the exhaust smell. It is supposed to smell like french fries cooking. ;-) ....

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unit5alive
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2003-08-11          61599

mark, I own a car audio shop in latrobe pa ,and we sell a product called dynamat that is made for sound reduction purposes. they make a kit for car hoods that I was going to try on my own tractor. if you want I can get you the part number, so you could pick it up locally. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-08-12          61624

From my sound/lighting and musician buz days I know a bit about it. Open celled foam is pretty good at cutting mid to high frequencies. It takes a lot of mass to do much with lower ones. Still, a muffled rumble would be an improvement over full bore engine noise. I took a 2/3-octive analyzer under my steel tractor canopy with me once and I was surprised at how even the sound was. As I recall all bands measured from the low 80's db to mid-90's. There'd still be quite a bit of rumble from any reasonable use of foam, but still probably a lot less irritating.

If you haven't done so, one thing that might be checked out is the flame spread and toxic properties of the product (might impress customers too). I imagine it's designed for exterior use under a hood and probably works well in that application. Many foams have fast flame spread rates and give off toxic fumes when they burn and they may not be the sort of thing you want inside along with you. I had to use really expensive stuff inside commercial buildings.

Audio radio eh? I picked up a couple of bargain Alpine 800w peak 15" bass speakers years ago. Somebody had them re-coned and then couldn't afford the job. Alpines were re-labeled pro speakers and maybe still are. I used them in some folded horn cabinets I had. I retired the cabs but I still use one of them in a bass guitar cabinet. Works great. I have trouble imagining why somebody would want two of them plus mid-highs in a car but then I'm not young. Well, except for jamming, the cabinet with the Alpine actually is my mid-high cab. My main cab proves that all of us can be kids and love it even if nobody nearby does.
....

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DRankin
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2003-08-12          61637

Thanks to all for the help and suggestions. I am happy to report that increasing the fuel additive has done the job.

I really noticed it when I pulled it back in the garage last night. The spikey, high pitched, penetrating clatter had disappeared.

So apparently it was a need for a higher Cetane number and to noise I was hearing was related to uneven or incomplete combustion.

Two other observations: maybe you guys can help me understand.

The 4110 had a compression ratio of 23:1

The 4115 (and it's bigger brothers)have a 18:1 compression ratio.

And I smell more "diesel fumes" with this tractor that I didn't notice with the the other two.

Does the drop in compression and the odor have a relationship to the increased Cetane need and the increased noise?


....

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TomG
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2003-08-12          61695

Indirect injection engines have higher compression than direct injections and I've always heard they are quieter and maybe smoother. I hope somebody adds specifics to my 'why fors' here. I think many of the differences are due to direct vs. indirect injection.

My impression is that indirect needs higher compression to produce ignition temperatures in the pre-combustion chambers. They don't start well without use of glow-plugs even with higher compression. They may be quieter because of the nature of the combustion. It sort of swirls out the pre-combustion chambers, which is more of an initial push than a bang. I'd guess that combustion may be more through, which could produce less diesel smell. On the other hand, I also believe indirect engines produce greater power and I can't quite square the two ideas.

I can only guess why increasing the cetane level would reduce noise. Assuming that the additive changes the fuel's flash point and that somehow changes the nature of combustion seems like a pretty good bet. It'd be interested to hear more.
....

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Chief
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2003-08-12          61698

From what I understand cetane rating pertains to the delay time of combustion upon the ignition compression stroke. The longer the ignition delay the lower the cetane rating and vs versa. If the ignition time is reduced the flame propogation front has a longer period of time to work on the piston head and is supposed to be a smoother a quieter event. Where as the low cetane fuel with a longer ignition delay flame propigation front has less time to work on the piston head making for a much faster and more violent event accompanied by more noise. Well......... anyway it sounds like a good story. ;-) ....

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jeff r
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2003-08-12          61712

I think you are right Chief. It is the same with gasoline. Low octane gives a wild and hot uncontrolled burn and spark knock as compared with high octane gas burning smoothly. Put some high octane aviation fuel in your car and see how clean the plugs are. ....

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TomG
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2003-08-13          61722

I asked and so I heard. Good stories all around. Chief's and Jeff's being better than mine. So I'll use their stories and see if I can improve mine.

Scanning my spill time adjustment procedure, it looks like all of injection occurs before top dead centre, as does ignition on most gas engines. If that's the case, then compression is still increasing as combustion occurs. Combustion should start later for fuels with lower flash points and it would occur at higher compression. Sounds like there'd be good potential for making more noise. If that's the case, adjusting the spill time should quiet things down but probably also lowers performance. Doesn't seem like there'd be a need if more cetane does the trick. ....

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Chief
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2003-08-13          61727

I remember from my days of flying helicopers when we used JP-4 (which is rot gut); when DOD switched over to JP-8 I noticed better fuel milage and much lower TGT's. The T-701's actually made a little more power as well. I guess you could look at a turbine engine as a diesel engine of sorts. DOD requires certain additives to be placed in the fuel such as PRIST and I believe there was a lubricity additive to help protect HMU's and fuel controls. Now there is an idea for a really quiet and powerful CUT for Mark. How about a John Deere CUT powered with a T-62 APU turbine engine? ;-) Might be kinda interesting keeping it properly fed though. ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-16          61969

Well, I was out of town for a few days and when I came back I fired up the 4115 so I could move the 5th wheel.

It is definitely quieter. Much quieter. The only thing that changed was a max dose of Red Line Plus 85 fuel conditioner.

Wimpy fuel I guess? ....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-16          61970

That's great information Mark. I'm gonna try that in my 4310 to see if it could be made a bit quieter. It's not so bad at idle for short periods of time but long-term I'd rather it were a little quieter.
....

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jeff r
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2003-08-16          61974

I been using that Redline stuff since winter and it is great stuff. Makes a cold diesel in the winter start alot quicker without the white smoke at start up. I think Mark or Tom told me about it. Had a tough time finding it but I finally special ordered it at a store called RAMCHARGERS. I got 4 bottles for 20 some odd dollars. IT WORKS. I tripled the dose for one tank full and run a double dose after that. 4 bottles will last a long time.

JEFFR ....

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GJ Archibald
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2003-08-18          62049

Will this RedLine stuff work to quiet a 4100 ? From
the indirect / direction injection talk, I am confused
it this will do anything for us guys who have indirect
injection.....the noise level does not bother me on my 4100,
but making it quieter would not be a bad thing ;-) ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-18          62058

I used it in my 4100 because of excessive smoke and hard starting and poor throttle response.

It not only fixed those symptoms, but it quieted the engine so much that the valve train was the loudest noise I could hear from the engine.

Yes it will work. Start with the "clean-up" dose. ....

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GJ Archibald
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2003-08-18          62069

Thanks Mark ! G ....

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