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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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Andyw
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2003-07-15          59573

HI,

I have a 4700 with a 460 FEL and a 48 back hoe. If I have my paleet forks installed on the loader and a pallet loaded and raised and leave the loader in an up position for five minutes or less the forks start tipping. I have the same problem with the back hoe. I start working with the stabalizers lowered and after five minutes I am bouncing off the tires. I have had the dealer check for this problem but get the reply that the leak down rate is within the service manual specs. This was checked before the tractor was two years old and had approx. 250 hours. Is anyone else having this problem?


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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-07-16          59587

I have the stabilizer problem with my hoe. I don't try to lift the rear wheels with the stabilizers but the tractor is pretty heavy for the hoe. I'm going to check the relief valve pressure on the hoe valve to see if up to spec before tearing into the valve. There's a chance that weight plus load shocks from digging are bleeding off some oil in the stabilizers.

Other people have commented that the JD leak down standards are generous enough to be aggravating. As Murf mentioned in another thread. Fancy valves can have load locks and then the problem goes away, even if the price does go up. My loader valve doesn't leak down appreciably and it doesn't have locks. The valve is at least 10 years old.

....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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DRankin
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2003-07-16          59588

Yes, it is a common complaint. My 4100 FEL leaks down, as do most Deere loaders judging from the comments we get here.

If I recall the specs correctly, anything less than a foot of movement per hour, measured at the hydraulic cylinder, is considered normal.

There is some information on the Deere web site on this topic. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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andywoj
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6 Caledon East, Ontario Canada
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2003-07-16          59608

Hi Tom and Mark,

Thanks for replies. The leak down problem is there even when there is no load applied. If you leave the back hoe with out the travel pins in it it will lay on the ground in approx. 15 minutes, as well the FEL will do the same. If I was aware of this so called normal leak down I would have looked at other products. I purchased JD because I thought it was top quality product. There are many other products in this class at a much lower price that do not leak down at this rate. Is anyone aware of a fix or modification to correct this problem. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-07-16          59613

This seems to be a rather widespread problem, and even then it appears that sometimes it is the cylinder that is the culprit, sometimes the valve.

The loader on my new 'Bota has an extremely slow leakdown, and my hydraulic toplink which NEVER leaked down on my old unit now drops rather quickly.

If you could determine whether it was the cylinder or valve that was leaking it could concievably be fixed, but is it worth it?

Since none of us would ever park a machine, or probably even get off a machine without lowering all hydraulically moveable parts it should never be an issue, right ? ;-> LOL

Best of luck. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-07-17          59662

A foot an hour?????? That redefines the leakdown standard. My Wood's Loader will stay in place for a couple days or longer before it drops even a so slightly and the PD backhoe boom moves down about an inch in 2 days. A tilt on the loader bucket with no load in 5 minutes is totally UNBELIEVABLE. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-07-17          59664

The internal control valve parts for the factory Ford loader valve (which I don't have) are in my parts manual so most valves likely can be rebuilt and cylinders resealed. However, rebuilding things wouldn't solve the problem if appreciable leak down is accepted in the engineering design, and it seems to be.

There might be various reasons why a leaky valve would be designed (more gratuitous safety stuff for example). Sloppy spools and cylinders may last longer. There also can be all sorts of unanticipated factors in the use of equipment that are missed in design. For example, people may use lighter oil than anticipated or, more particles during break-in get through the filter and end up in the valve spools. Maybe JD CS has some answers. I'm not sure that rebuilding things would lessen the leak-down.

If you're interested in delving into it a bit, Your loader may have quick connects on the cylinder lines and disconnecting them to see if the leak-down stops would help identify where the leaks are. If the leak down persists and the PB line has a quick-connect for the hoe, the loader PB can be disconnected, which would stop oil leaking from the cylinders back to the sump. If the leak-down persists, it still could be inside the control valve across the valve If so, there's really no fix except now control valve sections. Most spools seal by close tolerance machining and lapping into the valve bodies. There aren't any seals to replace.

I'm pretty much with Murf here. Leak down during operation isn't much of a problem since I continuously adjust the position of things anyway. My hoe stabilizers is another question. The leak down does affect my operation and is aggravating enough to motivate me do fix it. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2003-07-17          59673

Jeff, the leakage is situational.

Worst case I have observed: load in the bucket(one foot off the deck), hot day, in the sun, the bucket will drop a foot in 20 minutes.

Best case: cold day, in the shade, no load.... it stays put for a couple of days. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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jeff r
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2003-07-17          59681

I know Mark......but the problem he has would be intolerable for me. A bucket tilt in 5 minutes????? stabilizer drop on backhoe?????? For all intents and purposes in my mind he might he might as well have a hydro hose streaming oil and leaking badly. It may be within JD convoluted specifications and it may be situational.......BUT IT IS NOT NORMAL, there is a problem, and it is affecting operation. I wouldn't put up with it. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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Murf
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2003-07-17          59693

It may also be that JD's "normal range" is a little 'customer abuse' tolerant. A friend of my Father's bought a CUT for playing, err... I mean working, around his cottage, this machine had the same annoying problem. He talked to a hydraulic shop and they said the cylinder 'O' rings had likely been damaged by excess pressure.

He removed all the cylinders and took them in to be re-sealed, they said every one of the 'O' rings had dimples on them from fluid jetting past them. It cost him $30 per cylinder and now the loader will stay in position indefinitely.

Best of luck. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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DRankin
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2003-07-17          59694

Murf, did that situation involve a Deere or another brand? ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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Murf
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2003-07-17          59697

It was a Kubota with an aftermarket, Allied (Buhler) loader on it.

Basically ANY hydraulic cylinder which uses compression type 'O' rings can be damaged the same way, when pressure exceeds limits something gives, period.

Best of luck. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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DRankin
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2003-07-17          59699

Makes me wonder if there is some issue in the original assembly, like cycling the air out of the system, that damages the seals and causes the leak-down problem. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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Murf
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2003-07-17          59700

I think it's more likely a case of 'Napoleon Syndrome' applied to a CUT.

I don't know how many times I have heard "What do you mean too heavy? My machine lifts that no problem! I just had to add a little more ballast to the backend."

I have also seen, many times, someone trying to lift something so heavy that it took full RPM's and cycling between boom lift and bucket curl circuits to get it off the ground. If the machine will not readily lift something this should be a SIGN to the operator NOT a CHALLENGE.

The bottom line is, if the design specifications are exceeded eventually something HAS to FAIL, period.

Best of luck. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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andywoj
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-07-18          59737

Hi Murf,
For heavy loads I use my JD450B crawler loader and not my JD4700 loader. I do not over load my equipment. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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andywoj
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2003-07-18          59740

Hi Murf,

The backhoe cylinders do not use "O" rings. The composite piston has a single composite wiper on the piston and it is not a close fit to the cylinder. I feel this is the cause of the leak down. As far as the loader is concered I have not had any of those cylinders apart so I am not shure how they seal them. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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Murf
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2003-07-18          59741

Andy, I am of the same mnd, when ever possible I use the JCB TLB for the heavy stuff, although at 10 tons it really isn't turf friendly.

How does the hoe cylinder hold fluid if it isn't a close fit ?

Best of luck. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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DRankin
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2003-07-18          59751

So maybe Deere is saving a couple of bucks by using lower grade O rings? After seeing what they do to cut production costs for cars nothing would surprise me.

I wonder if we can fix the leak-down with the simple addition of better quality O rings? ....

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Murf
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2003-07-18          59753

The guys at my local hydraulic shop are really super, I called them out of curiousity on this matter.

As with everything else, they say there are different types of material, strengths, and of course price.

They say they ONLY use the top quality stuff and if someone wants lees they are free to take their business elswhere. They say if they have to warranty something they're going to use the best material, not the cheapest, since come-backs don't pay the rent.

OEM manufacturing however is another story. A certain performance standard is required and anything that meets or exceeds it is fair game, whether there is a better, more suitable product is often not part of the equation.

Any reputable, knowledgeable hydraulic shop can change/upgrade the seals on ANYTHING for relatively little money, especially if you remove and deliver the cylinder or valve.

As an example, to reseal BOTH grapple bucket cylinders (4"x18") on my JCB is going to cost me $100 (US$70), and the main boom cylinder is going to be $75.00 (US$50), they're going in Monday.

Best of luck. ....

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Cylinder leak down on 460 FEL and 48 back hoe

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-07-19          59794

I mentioned inner and outer seals over on the other thread. I wasn't intending to doubt that some cylinders don't use o-ring seals but just that I don't know of them.

For testing cylinder leaks from one side to the other just disconnecting cylinder quick-connects while a load is up may stop leak down and that's a pretty good indication of where the leak is. A better test is to remove one line and feed pressure to the other side of the cylinder. If there's leak through oil will come out the open line.

Any quick-connect has to be removed to open the line but I have spare fittings that I'd probably use to open a quick-connect.
....

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John R.
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2003-07-19          59809

Another factor that influences leak down is the hydraulic oil. John Deere puts in low viscosity HyGard oil at the factory. I have known of a couple tractor owners that found using the regular HyGard oil improved the leakdown rates of their loaders significantly. If you look in the owners manual, both Hygard and low viscosity hygard are recommended for J.D. CUTS. The regular hygard will just take longer to warm up in cold weather. ....

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DRankin
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2003-07-19          59816

John, that is good info and I always wondered if that was a factor in the equation. ....

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