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kwschumm
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2003-03-20          51529

Is anyone else here suspicious of the long-term viability of the electronics in the 4xxx tractors? I'd really like to buy a 4310, but all the electronics are scaring me off.

Electronic components (processors, DSPs, logic devices, etc) seem to be the raw material required to build the "brains" of these tractors. I'm sure that JD buys the electronic components they use, therefore when the components are End-of-lifed (outside the control of JD) they will no longer be able to manufacture replacement parts. Electronic components are not like steel - you can't just go to a machine shop to get a part manufactured. Once an electronic component is no longer made you are SOL.

There are two viable solutions, but I can't see JD doing either of them. They can either stock enough parts to supply replacement needs for the next 50 years (management typically doesn't want to have that much cash tied up in inventory) or plan on redesigning replacement parts using current technology when obsolete components are no longer available (they probably want to spend their engineering budget on new products, not old ones).

Historically tractors have a very long useful working life, but availability of many electronic components is measured in months nowadays. I know JD has a good reputation of parts availability, but do they have any track record of redesigning electronics to repair old equipment? Will the push toward electronic controls shorten the working life of these tractors?


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Billy
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2003-03-20          51532

If it does, we can all go back to the horse and buggy days ;) ....

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jdioa
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2003-03-26          51904

Many people had the same thought when the Deere 8000 series ag tractors came out in 1995. Their electrionic systems have proven to be very dependable. Just a thought. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-03-26          51907

It's good to know that JD electronics seem to have been reliable so far, but I see a big difference between trying to get replacement electronics for an 8 year old tractor vs. a 20-50 year old tractor.

I'm curious if the 4xxx series tractors have a limp-home mode. Will the ehydro work at all without it's electronics?
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slowrev
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2003-03-26          51913

Yes it will shorten the effective life of the tractors. But that is what the tractor manufacturers want. They are in the business of selling tractors. And no matter what they say, they do not want the tractor to last 30 years or more. I have already seen this problem in the auto industry. Which the tractor industry seems to be following the lead of.

I am an electronics technician and can repair many things, but once a computer chip/module the tractor uses becomes unavailable the tractor is trash. However I can get any mechanical part on a tractor repaired or built from scratch by myself or a good machinist. Also Electronics do not tend to hold up too well in the high vibration sit outside environment that tractors live in.

Of course if you plan on trading in the tractor on a new one every few years ( as with most people and their auto's) , This will not be a problem.

Just my opinion, but based on empirical evidence.

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Billy
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2003-03-26          51925

The way I understand it is your tractor will continue to work if all the electronic switches were to go out. The only one necessary is the PTO switch. If that were to go out, you couldn't engage the PTO.

The main concern here is the electronic controller. Without it working, your hydro pedals won't work. If by chance it was to go out and JD had stopped making them. You could take parts from a 4000 series hydro and change the 4000 Ten series to a 4000. Most likely it would consist of a couple of linkages.

I don't think they'll quit making the controller. If they do, there will be aftermarket ones pop up. Just think, an electronic controller cost very little to produce, since the design is already there. There would be a lot of money to be made here.

Billy ....

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slowrev
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2003-03-26          51932

Yes Billy,
Aftermarket companies would make the controller if they could. But with the gummit extending copyright laws to 99 years, it could be a long time as the software in the controller chip would be copyrighted by JD.

I like to buy a tractor to keep, however I cannot to wait 100 years for a part.

IMHO. Tractors should be kept simple, for reliability and ease/low cost of repair.

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Billy
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2003-03-26          51934

slowrev

On the copyright, if JD isn't gonna make the part they would certainly sell the copyright to the software.

You seem to think JD made something to sell and are planning to leave the buyer holding the bag? John Deere didn't get where it is today by doing that kind of business. Now if we were talking about some fly-by-night tractor company, I would agree with you.

Everyone has their own opinions. That's why forums are so interesting. On this point, neither one of us can prove we are right. I'll tell ya what. I'll bet you a buck I can buy a controller for my 4610 in 30 years? That is if we are both still kickin and we both remember the bet ;) ....

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kwschumm
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2003-03-26          51936

It's not just a matter of JD releasing the copyright. Even if they gave their custom firmware to the public domain, if the components are no longer available (microcontroller or programmable logic device) it may be a big effort to port to new devices. Do aftermarket manufacturers currently make replacement electronics for ANY brand of tractor?

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Billy
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2003-03-26          51938

Not that I'm aware of, kwschumm. I can't see any difference in an automobile chip and a tractor chip. I do know you can buy electronic chips for autos from several sources.

If it was built once, it can be built again. And cheaper the second time around.


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kwschumm
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2003-03-26          51942

As I see it, the only reason that aftermarket companies can afford the development effort for these chips is because the automotive performance market exists. Except for a few "Tim Taylor" like folks most people won't be hot rodding their tractors, so there is little demand for high performance CUT parts.

The individual chips rarely go bad - if there's a failure the entire board is replaced. The boards are made of many components, and WHEN one of them becomes obsolete there is a good chance the entire board may need to be redesigned.

I have faced this in my work. Some new products had to be redesigned a few months after release because components were discontinued. Sure, most of the time the semiconductor companies give you a chance to stock up on the obsolete parts, but a company can only afford to stock so many parts before the bean counters start screaming. ....

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Kyle_in_Tex
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2003-03-26          51946

You have a point, but programmed obsolescence is a factor built into almost everything manufactured/engineered. Look at NASA, buying old computer chips off EBAY for the shuttle.
If you like your tractors the old way, just save us all some time and go buy an old tractor. There are many out there that have been restored and the price is right. Just be sure you can get parts for it first if it is 50 years old. Do you drive a model A or T? ....

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slowrev
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2003-03-26          51951


JD and the other 'American' tractor companies are not what they used to be. Check out the postings over on yesterdays tractors. You will find a post from a guy with a new JD4010, whom the dealer has told that getting handfulls of shavings from his hydraulic system during the 50 hr service is normal!!! and that all of those shavings will not hurt anything, even though they have gone thru the transmission.

Our formerly American tractor companies are more interested in profit margin than quality. Quality only becomes an issue if the poor quality is causing sales to drop. They do not have the problems with recalls as does the auto industry because they are not required by the gummit to do so.

When American tractors were made here, so were the parts. Many parts were usable on multiple models. Now a single manufacurers line may include tractors from several different countries mode up of components from even more countries. I believe that tractor parts availabiliy will become more difficult in the future as the cost and logistics of stocking parts from the MANY sources. Tractor companies will start discontinuing parts sooner than in the past.

Use Sears as an example. At one time if you bought something from Sears you could expect to always get parts for it from sears. Not anymore... it is getting more common all of the time to hear' we are sorry but that has been discontinued'.

BTW. among my old stuff, I have a 31 year old Troy built tiller, a 30 year old Gravely riding garden tractor (sub compact?) and a 2444 IH tractor. All work great and have very little problems. I figure they will last me as long as I am able to use them. However I am always adding to my collection of old and new toys...err tools :) I like stuff that works, not necessarialy new, but tough and dependable.
I am glad that my wife must feel the same way, she has not kicked me out yet:)

I was looking at a good used JD1020 a few weeks ago. NIce tractor, however when I talked to my local JD dealer about parts availability, I was told that parts for it were expensive and hard to get. He then proceeded to try and sell me an new 40xx model. I now go to another dealer to get parts when I need them working on my family's JD tractors.






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kwschumm
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2003-03-26          51952

Kyle_in_Tex, what do you mean by saying "save us all some time"? As I see it if this thread bothers you or is wasting your time you aren't obligated to waste your time responding. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-03-26          51953

Kyle_in_Tex, what do you mean by saying "save us all some time"? As I see it if this thread bothers you or is wasting your time you aren't obligated to waste your time responding. ....

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JDX595
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2003-03-27          51957

I agree with many of the posts regarding the claim that John Deere and other manufacturers aren't as concerned about quality as they used to be. But I think that is true with every piece of the U.S. economy. Of course there are exceptions but it seems that the attitude of the average worker has changed. I know I probably sound like some old guy (I am old -48) who talks of the good old days but I've seen a change where I work. The attitude of many of the workers is that their spiritual and emotional needs come first. They need constant and daily affirmation telling them was a good job they do in order for them to function. In the end the quality is reduced. The employer deserves some critisism as well as most do a lousy job of rewarding the top performers. I trust this is the same with JD and all of its' component manufacturers. I don't believe there is the pride in a good job done as there was 20-30 years ago. Again, many employers have not figured out a good way to get the pride back. Finally, we as consumers of compact utility tractors and other outdoor power equipment are partially to blame. We're always looking for the lost price and the chance to save $10 on a tractor. I do it all the time. But when the price is always the determining factor then the manufacturers will always be responding and that usually means a reduction in quality. ....

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Billy
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2003-03-27          51965

Slowrev,

You say 'American' but you discribed every tractor manufacturer in business today.

The world and the way business is done is changing. We only have ourselves to blame. ....

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TomG
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2003-03-27          51969

I replaced the ignition module on my '89 Ford 1/2-ton a few yeas back. Since then I heard that Ford recalled these Thick Film modules due to early failures. Too bad mine already has a new one and at my expense. Guess these things do happen and it's good if the part has a mass market, which tractor don't create or there's an open architecture standard, which there isn't. Proprietary electronics can get customers in trouble if it isn't supported by the manufacture, which they don't necessarily. I think there's a 10-year parts guarantee for N.A. automobiles but that was done by legislation rather than from the generosity of the manufacturers. ....

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JAZAK5
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2003-03-27          51976

I agree with TOMG thats why I bought a 790. I can do light bulbs,starts,altanators and I dont need a $1000 dianostic program by"snap-on" to figure out if the safty swith on my fel is the reason why it wont start 10 years from now. ....

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Kyle_in_Tex
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2003-03-27          51977

I apoligize for coming off so strong.

What I'm saying is your apprehensiveness may be well founded, but, like it or not, electronics are here to stay. A good friend of mine that works for motorola told me that many new vehicles have an amount of $$$ wrapped up in electronics comparable to the mechanical items. I found this hard to believe at 1st but if you figure every little wire and control, it does add up.
Your options are limited in the tractor market if you eliminate the makes that have been around for over 50 years.
I have the 4310 and so far, it has been a great little machine. I have pressure washed the switches and everything else for that matter. While this may not be the smartest thing to do, I want to see what happens to stuff while it is under warranty.
I have been in the manufacturing industry for quite some time now and quality is as good as it has ever been considering that pricing has gone down. Many people tried to ram down our throats the fact that quality does not add costs to anything. Well they must not have priced Toyotas lately...Kyle
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Billy
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2003-03-27          51979

Hmmmmm, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I hope I can remember this thread when it happens ;)

If you think the 4000 Ten series tractors have electronic gadgetry, just wait 10 years. You ain't seen nothing yet. They haven't even started on the tractor diesel engines yet.

Tom and everyone else, I can see your point. Never the less, a part is a part is a part. Whether it's a tach, fuel gauge, seat or controller, there's BIG money in parts. It really all depends on how many tractors need a speciffic part.

I wonder how many 4000 Ten series tractors have been sold so far? The ones that use a controller, use the same one.

Maybe someone out there can enlighten us on the sales? Mr Ethics or some other JD dealer can jump in anytime. I'm sure you know more than me (I hope so anyway). ....

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slowrev
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2003-03-27          51982

Billy,
Yes I did intend to refer to all tractor manufacturers, not just American. In my opinion there are no more american tractor manufacturers. I believe less than a dozen tractor models are actually made in the USA. Some are assembled here from foreign components, but that is just a way to get tax and tarrif breaks.

JDX595,
Yes the worker commitment has declined in this country, but the corporations have worked long and hard to make that happen. In 1970 when I first entered the work force, a person could expect to do a good job and then retire from service to the company with a decent retirement. Not so now-a-days, employees are a temporary expendable item to corporate America now. Do a good job, work harder, and next week we will lay you off because we are moving the factory to Mexico in order to make more profit. Retirement benefits are down, etc.

We the worker/consumer deserve some of the blame as well for buying cheap imported products, however now it is difficult to 'Buy American' as most of the consumer goods seem to be imported.

The inevitable result of free world trade is that the richer countries (USA) will get poorer while the situation in the poorer countries improve.

Oh well life goes on.....
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kwschumm
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2003-03-27          51984

To Kyle_in_Tex, no problem, I reread your post and was probably a little hypersensitive.

To all, sorry for the double post. I don't know how that happened.

I think electronics are a good thing in these tractors from a driveability/emissions/fuel economy/featuritis standpoint. By the time JD no longer makes spare parts for them there may even be an aftermarket manufacturer of spares. I can't see the business case for it, but that's probably why I'm not a self-made millionaire.

I am curious though - does JD have a written policy stating the length of their commitment to future parts availability?
Does any CUT manufacturer?
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Jim on Timberridge
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2003-03-27          52026

I don't understand the logic of critics who complaint about the use of electronics for controlling tractor functions. Just about everything else in our society are microprocessor-controlled: cars, CD players, laptops, coffee-makers, etc.
Should we reject the superior control and reliability that solid state electronics offers? Do we want to do without the capabilities that are now available?
There's something incongruent about the argument that electronically controlled features which were not available with mechanical controls should not be placed on the tractor. If you don't want or need, then don't buy. If your tractor has them, but they break down, then you don't have available what you didn't have before.
Our mercantile society is based on consumers buying what they want, and rejecting what is undesirable. John Deere (and other OEM's) isn't going to install features that aren't acceptable to their customer base.
jimp ....

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R_squared
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2003-03-28          52063

Properly designed electronic circuits should surpass many diesel engine rebuilds. This statement does not apply to consumer audio/TV/video products. The complexity of those products greatly outweighs their quality. If heat, vibration and moisture are a problem, then printed circuit boards can be contained in potted modules. Most of the electronic failures I have encountered throughout time were power supply components, relays, switches, potentiometers and connectors. Of course, if surges or continual abuse occurs, then any component can fail. Controlling circuitry seems to hold up well. Sensor characteristics can change over time and send out-of-range values to the controller which can result in errors. The government closely mandates that ODBII automobile computers provide a basic set of signals to limp home in the event of a drivability problem. The check engine light has three modes of illumination to indicate the severity of the problem. I'm not sure if the government mandates the same for agricultural tractors or heavy equipment. One thing the government does require is for a manufacture to keep replacement parts available for ten years after the product model is discontinued. In the event of a failure, I'd probably want to know how Deere and Kubota communicate it to the user and mechanic. Is the serial data specific enough to make an accurate diagnosis? Another question would be, "How many custom IC's are in the Deere and Kubota circuitry?" Also, "What methodology did Kubota and Deere use to perform their reliability studies?" Are schematics available to the owner and has anyone seen them? My new tractor does not have the latest complex circuitry, but here are some things I did to help prolong electrical longevity:

1) Sealed some connector ends with silicon rubber (RTV).
2) Put a section of bicycle inner tube over connectors in potentially wet areas and wire tied the ends tight.
3) Applied Caig Preserv-It on every electrical connector and engine sensor pin/socket.
4) Wrapped some connectors with electrical tap to help keep dirt out.
5) Sprayed dash switches with Caig Progold.

I did not take the center console cowl off yet, but plan on doing it this spring. It took about four hours to do the above and I figure under the consol will take another two hours. Most of what I said was food for thought and maybe someone out there knows the answers to some of the proposed questions.
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kwschumm
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2003-03-28          52070

My concerns have nothing to do with the use of electronic controls. I am only concerned with parts availability 20 years down the road. In a worst case scenario, it would be a shame to junk a 20 year old mechanically perfect tractor because a replacement controller was unavailable or cost more than the rest of the tractor was worth. In simpler tractors the parts can be made or retrofitted. It's a lot harder to retrofit complex logic to control an ehydro.
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nighthawk
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2003-05-10          54632

I was interested to see that others shared my fear of the electronics in these new machines. The marriage between hydraulics and electronics has and will offer some really neat equipment. But at what cost? Yes, I run newly bought JD equipment. My 770 was left standing in the lane when a fuse blew for no reason in a module that I didn't know existed (for the operator presence stuff). Fortunately, I had the talent to trouble shoot that one. That would have cost a bundle for that simple fuse. My PTO engagement on my 6200 open station tractor now works in a very intermitent manner, and has me scared. I once priced a silly aux 12 volt connector for the same tractor and it blew my mind. It was almost obscene! For me, the cost of some module, down the road is un thinkable!!! An old fashioned, simple and usually sticky PTO engagement lever would never fail me. As with my vehicles, my current thinking is to replace them sooner, rather then later. But with tractors, it should be different. It used to be different. They say, they get you coming and going. I guess for my fear, they just get me coming. ....

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slowrev
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2003-05-10          54635

R squared,
Sounds like you sealed it up pretty well. However if JD was interested in long life electronics they would be doing this. They just want to sell more tractors. Electronics is one way to do this. Today they may say we will have parts forever, tomorrow that may change. Parts availability for tractors is not covered by law or contractual obligation to the average tractor consumer.

For tractors its KISS ( Keep It Simple Stupid ).
Metal parts can always be manufactured/machined, not so easy with sealed computer modules and plastic parts.


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lineman-mid.mich.
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2003-05-15          54945

I just towed my 2 month old 4610 e-hydro onto the dealers trailer with my 63 year old 9-n.It's been broke for 3 weeks,won't move more than 5 feet at a time.Flashes code 112.dealer wanted me to try and adjust pedals because they were to busy putting together lawn mowers.I am totally disgusted with this tractor and the dealer! I spent the extra money on the deere name.My mistake.I'd be real happy to get my money back. ....

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Chief
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2003-05-15          54948

I would be interested in hearing about what if any parts you have NOT been able to obtain from John Deere? ....

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Billy
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2003-05-15          54953

lineman-mid.mich,

It's a bad controller. Simple fix but if you're as unhappy as you sound in your post, get rid of it.
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slowrev
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2003-05-15          54955

How much does the controller cost when out of warranty ?
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Billy
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2003-05-15          54956

Not positive but I heard $200. ....

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slowrev
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2003-05-16          54959

200.00, thats not so bad. I had thought it would be much more.
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Chief
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2003-05-16          54982

If I am not mistaken, I believe it is around $145 provided you install it yourself. ....

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lineman mid.mich.
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2003-05-16          55005

It sounds like you guys are up on the e-hydro more than the dealer.They had no idea,neither did the mechanic they sent out.When they told me they were to busy putting lawnmowers together,that was it for me.This from an old dealer thats been around for years.I e-mailed deere ,they didn't much care either,so ya,I'm sour.Thanks for the info. ....

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