Go Bottom4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
 | WEST
Join Date: Posts: 1 
|
2002-11-07 44711
HAS ANYONE HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE HYDRAULIC PUMP ON THE NEW 4000 TEN SERIES JOHN DEERE?
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| Maurice
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 0 canada
|
2002-11-07 44719
I have a 4310 and have had some problems with the lift cylinders chattering when first lifted on the 430 loader. What are you having for problems? ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| WEST
Join Date: Posts: 1
|
2002-11-08 44741
I HAVE 124 HOURS ON MY 4210, THE OTHER DAY I WAS USING THE BRUSH HOG AND STOPPED FOR A MINUTE, WHEN I ENGAGED THE PTO THINGS HAPPENED, ALOT SQUELING ANDWINING, NO HYDROSTAT. I SHUT IT DOWN AND CALLED THE DEALER. THEY CAME AND PICKED IT UP THE NEXT MORNING. I STOPPED IN TO CHECK THINGS OUT 2 DAYS LATER, AND THEY HAD FOUND THAT THE INTERNAL SPLINES IN THE CLUTCH HAD BEEN COMPLETELY WIPED OUT AND THE INPUT SHAFT ON THE HYDRAULIC PUMP HAD A TWIST IN IT. I BOUGHT THE JOHN DEERE BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS THE BEST, NOW I'M A LITTLE WORRIED. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
|
2002-11-08 44743
It sounds like two separate problems and I imagine it's under warranty so the pain will be less. Big rotary cutters are hard on PTO clutches, but you wouldn't expect shaft splines to strip if the tractor is within the recommended power range of the cutter. A big cutter with a heavy shear pin or heavily adjusted slip-clutch might do it and there might be a warranty problem if it wasn't a dealer recommended configuration.
It's hard to make a case that the pump shaft bent other than from a manufacturing defect or design problem. Pressure relief valves are supposed to prevent excessive mechanical loads on the pump as well as excessive pressures on the hydraulic components, and the relief valves are pretty reliable things. There's a good chance that the shaft twisted due to a bind in the pump or drive gear--which still comes under the heading of a defect. It really shouldn't happen.
I don't know about loader chattering. My used one chattered when I tried to ease it down with heavy loads. It turned out to be a lubrication problem. For some reason the upper lift cylinder bushings had 90-degree zircs in them that were almost impossible to get a greased gun on. I replaced them with 45-degree fittings, greased it well several times and the chattering went away.
....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
 | Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma 
 Pics
|
2002-11-08 44744
What RPM was your tractor when you engaged the cutter? You should idle down when you engage any piece of equipment. It's easier on the tractor and the equipment.
Billy ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| WEST
Join Date: Posts: 1
|
2002-11-08 44747
THE CUTTER IS A 5FT. JOHN DEERE I PURCHASED NEW WITH THE TRACTOR. ENGINE RPM'S WERE AT 1000, OR 10 ON THE TACH. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
 | jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 428 burton. michigan
Pics
|
2002-11-08 44753
I will bet the input shaft was not properly heat treated to get the the proper tensile strength. Hardness and tensile strength material testing machines is what I sell and service for a living for most major manufacturers. Take the damaged part to a test Lab and get it Rockwell hardness tested and I will bet you IT DOES NOT MEET manufacturers's SPECIFICATIONS. Have them chop it in half and Rockwell Test the core because some mfg's just case harden the surface for splines and gears using the Rockwell 15N scale. Nevertheless, there is a specification for core hardness and if that part was "soft" it would twist like a pretzel under torque. This part failed because it wasn't properly heat treated for proper hardness. I wonder how many of these parts got through QC because these parts are heat treated in batches. If one failed then a whole batch of them got through and where installed in somebody's GREEN tractor and are ready to fail. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| DH83
Join Date: Posts: 1
|
2002-11-08 44768
OK WEST,we won't tell anybody,how big were the boulders you
were trying to chop up?I have chopped up 3-4" trees with
my 4310/6ft bush hog,even killed the engine off many times.
Changed the hyd oil at 50 hrs and cut the filter a part,
filter was still clean.I hope they find a reason for this
failure and not a design problem.I wonder if the clutch on
the 4210,4310&4410 are all the same? Sorry to hear about
your probems...keep us posted ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
|
2002-11-09 44769
I have heard of slip-clutches on cutters rusting together but I don't think heard of it causing this type damage. I've also heard of people giving themselves problems by greasing slip-clutches.
Jeff: My male shepherd was given to chewing things as a pup. After he tackled an aluminum over-head lawn sprinkler, my dad suggested naming him Rockwell. Most people thought I just liked Norman Rockwell. Could be but that wasn't the point. The dog just liked to test the hardness of anything for the first few months.
I wondered about the pump shaft myself and it does seem a likely explanation. There are stories that JD did have a heat-treating problem with some hydraulic cylinder shafts.
Pure speculation, but I think of heat-treating as a pretty straightforward process. You know the alloy, you know the quenching temperature. You know the blank's size and you know how long to heat it. You know the Rockwell spec of the final part, you know the tempering temperature and time. I'm not up enough on the subject to know how case or other surface hardening might affect the tempering process, but it still is probably pretty straightforward. However, I guess mass production can get complicated. Maybe one part of the company substituted an alloy and another part of the company didn't recognize that a different protocol was needed. Maybe one company makes the blanks, another does the machining and a third the heat-treating. Plenty of chances for communications lapses in a modern corporate behemoth. Who knows, but from my view of the world, I just hope the tractor gets fixed without a lot of difficulty.
....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 428 burton. michigan
Pics
|
2002-11-09 44782
Your right Tom pretty straightforward process on heat treating, but here's what happens. Somebody is suppose to be monitoring quench temperatures in Quality Control and such but he gets involved in a break room card game or similar distraction.....get the picture? Most mistakes, if a not all involved in "soft" parts screw-ups are in oven temperature. You never hear about parts in my business of being TOO HARD. TOO MUCH HARDNESS COST MONEY. It is ALways TOO SOFT. I will bet the core hardness of that twisted shaft should be in excess of 50 Rockwell C and a case hardness of 90 or better on Rockwell 15N. They convert that to tensile strength and then you get the strength of the shaft. For that shaft to twist ............the tensile must have been like a hardware store Bolt. All machining is done BEFORE the hardening process because after you harden it past.... Hmmmm say past 30 Rockwell C ,,,YOU CANT MACHINE IT ANY MORE because your part is harder than your tooling bits and cutters. If you tear up your tooling somebody in management will be VERY UPSET. In a nut shell, they surface harden down to a certain depth for toughness and core hardnesss is always softer for tensile strength as compared to surface. They DO not use the Rockwell C scale on checking Surface hardness because the 150 kg Major load on the diamond indenter would Blow right through your surface case depth. That is why Rockwell 15n with a major load on the diamond indenter is only 15 Kg. If the entire shaft was hardened to the surface hardness the part COST would be unaffordable. That is why they cross cut the part in half to check core. Then check case depth with a microtester and surface check with Rockwell 15N scale. Simple process but when it gets screwed-up bad things happen. For that shaft to twist and NOT snap......It is pretty obvious to me what happened. Shafts and gears are some of the toughest stuff in my business and they don't TWIST like a pretzel.
And Yes, my company has did service and sold major testing equipment to the agricultural industry including JD and their suppliers. There is No company you can name that we haven't did something for at one time or another in 35 years. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
|
2002-11-09 44783
I won't speculate on this one, too many variables.
My expeirience with rotary citters has taught me that in this case, nobody will ever know for sure what exactly happened.
I've owned and used a few in my life time, J.D., Woods, Bush Hog, to name a few.
I have hit stumps, posts, and skunks. I have wrapped a 5/8" cable up so tight we had to use a torch to remove it. I've seen rocks as big as your head thrown several feet. I have even wittnesses a wallet with cash chopped to smithers, made a mental note of the poor sole who lost it, and noticed moments later my wallet was gone.
I've seen rotary cutter, drivelines, tractor PTO drivelines destroyed. Most cases, the damage was done before the failure, be it moments before, or days before.
I'd check out the slip clutch. If this was improperly assembled you have a case.
But I will also warn you, if the slipclutch was assembled properly, it could still have been seized. If the MX5 had set outside(on the dealer's lot, or yours), for a long period of time, it could be rusted stuck.
A faulty bearing in the driveline on the tractor could lose a ball or a roller and lock up tighter than a fly's butt stretched over a rain barrel. There is no protection in the tractors driveline to absorb that kind of shock load.
Nothing like you described happens without a reason, but sometimes the evidence is not accessable. Given the age of the equipment you describe, It should be covered by the factory warrenty, no questions asked.
Do not be dismayed, you have a good tractor. These things happen, and will happen most involveing a rotary cutter.
When useing a rotary cutter, all things are against the operator. You can not see below the uncut material in most situations, and objects are hidden. When these things are encountered, shock loads are astronomical.
No offense to the origonal poster in this case, but I've seen cases like this, in all colors of equipment. I've seen gearboxes that literally exploded..............and nobody hit 'nuttin......so they said...... A good look at the blades will always tell the tale.
Back to the origonal post:
We have experienced a few ( "few" not "many") faulty input shaft seals on the family of tractors in question, but that is all. Deere has covered each claim. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| John R
Join Date: Posts: 1
|
2002-11-09 44805
I am wondering if there might have been a misalignment during assembly. There are a lot of parts in that area that rely on locator pins for accurate alignment. I have seen cases on similar equipment where the pins were left out, or deformed during assembly leading to failure of shaft splines and sometimes bent shafts. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
|
2002-11-10 44814
Some pretty good background info on manufacturing process for myself and anybody else who's interested. Thanks. This got pretty long so I cut a few practical comments from the bottom and put them at the start. Much of the rest might be a bit self-indulgent. I've never understood why a cutter with a slip clutch wouldn't also have a shear pin as a fail-safe. Slip clutches do seize. The purpose of the slip clutch then would be to keep from breaking shear pins rather than protecting the drive train. Also, it's very good to know the speced hardness for shear pins when replacing them. I bought some bolts out of a hardware store bulk bin. The sign said they were grade-2 but the codes on several bolt heads were for grade-5. If the bolts had been intended as shear pins I might have damaged the PTO drive.
I see I got some of my process backwards. True enough that machining is done before heat-treating. I said blank when I should have said part. Tempered parts that are repaired are sometimes annealed to soften them, re-machined and then heat-treated again.
The failed shafts I've seen were broken rather than twisted. I think that's usually a size/weight issue. Mild steel would have to be larger in diameter than tempered alloy to withstand a given torque. I think that PTO shafts themselves are mild steel and they can twist and bend, but PTO shafts don't have to be placed inside of cases. Besides hardened things break or shatter if they're too hard. A broken end of a PTO shaft flopping around probably wouldn't be good. I believe that's Jeff's core and surface hardness issue. Harden the core for the load and the surface for wear.
Alignment always is a possibility. I broke an axle in my dad's old IH Travelall. Supposedly that was the result of hitting something on the Alaska highway that 'bent' an axle housing. I say supposedly because I think axle housings are casts and they should bend even less than hardened alloy steel. My wife's old Sundance broke a camshaft. An idiot previous repair by somebody unknown left the cam belt strung like a piano wire.
I guess both these examples might be alignment problems, but I'm with MrE here. Striped splines does sound like a locked up drive train. By the same token, I'd expect a properly treated pump shaft to break rather than twist. But then, I'm not playing expert here. I'm learning and thanks for the comments.
....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| WEST
Join Date: Posts: 1
|
2002-11-10 44823
THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THE INPUT. SOME MORE INFO, MY CUTTER HAS THE SHEAR PIN NOT A CLUTCH. I KEEP MY TRACTOR AND CUTTER IN THE GARAGE AND MY TRUCK SITS OUTSIDE, I REALLY LIKE MY MACHINERY. ONE POSSIBLE THING I MAY NEED TO LOOK AT IS THE FACT THAT THE DEALER BROKE A SHEAR PIN THE VERY FIRST TIME THE ENGAGED THE PTO SITTING IN THEIR LOT. I HAVE REPLACED 7 OR 8 SHEAR PINS SINCE THEN. THE DEALER EVEN SENT A MAN OUT TO LOOK AT THE CUTTER AND CHECK FOR ANY PROBLEMS. ALL THE GROUND I CUT I HAVE CUT SEVERAL TIME WHEN I HAD MY OLD FOR JUBILEE SO I KNOW WHERE ALL THE HAZZARDS ARE KNOW. WE HAVE OWNED THE PROBERTY FOR 8 YEARS SO I HAVE MOWED IT SEVERAL TIMES.
I WILL KEEP EVERYONE UPDATED ON THE REPAIR AND HOPEFULLY THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM IF IT IS EVER DISCOVERED. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 428 burton. michigan
Pics
|
2002-11-10 44829
Tom is right, some parts can be softened or annealed and re-machined, but in most if not all cases when that happens if the person buying those parts finds out about it he will reject them and make you EAT EM. You can do this when you are dealing with the same hardness all the way through the part. When you have surface hardness different from the core there is NO way to go back and FIX it. You get ONE shot to do it right and if you don't the parts are SCRAP. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
|
2002-11-11 44856
Yes, I think that taking a close look at a cutter that was breaking shear pins while doing nothing would be very good.
Jeff: Thanks for causing me to think about the very rudimentary heat-treating techniques I've somewhere in my mind for many years. Right again! Surface hardening, I think is various ways of enriching the surface of a part with carbon. Once it's there it would be hard to get rid of. I thought I'd be able to find my dad's ancient book on metallurgy and come up with an ancient technique but I couldn't. Somehow I remember burning parts along with leather and maybe something about cyanide. I know, this is a sideline to the tractor question and maybe a bit self-indulgent but I'm interested in these things.
....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| WEST
Join Date: Posts: 1
|
2002-11-20 45221
UPDATE-TRACTOR STILL NOT BACK TOGETHER, AND NO IDEA WHEN THE PARTS WILL BE IN. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| WEST
Join Date: Posts: 1
|
2002-11-26 45401
MY TRACTOR IS BACK IN MY GARAGE (11-22-2002) THE DEALER REPLACED JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING FROM THE FLYWHEEL BACK, INCLUDING TRANSMISSION, BUT NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENED. ALL WAS COVERED BY WARRANTY. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| Kyle_in_Tex
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 24 Austin, Tx.
|
2002-11-26 45405
West, Let's hope it holds together. My 4310 hits hard when engaging the PTO. My salesman was knowlegdeable about this and sold me an LX5 with a slip clutch. Not accusing anybody of anything here, but talking from experience, I know the natural thing to do is put a high grade bolt or shear pin in place to keep from shearing. I've done that myself(guilty). I hope that JD can somehow figure a way to ease the PTO engagement. As of now, they haven't. You might ask your dealer to trade in your cutter for a slip clutch model. My manual for my cutter recommends taking the slip clutch apart and re-torqueing yearly or if not slipping to make sure it doesn't cause problems. When my tractor was delivered, one of the 1st things the Salesman preached was to make sure engine is at idle when engaging. So far, I've hit quite a bit of stuff, my blades have a few gashes. I use my tractor to clean around our pond too. I back the shredder out over the water until the blades hit the water then pull forward. Works good. My cutter stays hydro-cleaned underneath. Yes the slip clutch works. Contrary to jeffr, I routinely machine parts over 42-45 rockwell C. Heat treating is cheap, its the quality of the steel used that is expensive. I'm sure my PTO shaft isn't made of plasma nuclear dipped inconel(maybe Kubota's is), so I hope if it gives, it does it under warranty. I tend to abuse equipment more while it's under warranty than if I'm liable. Still proud to be GREEN. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM
| jeff r
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 428 burton. michigan
Pics
|
2002-11-26 45410
Sure you can re-tool parts over 42-45 Rockwell C with special tooling but in a production setting it takes expensive specialized tooling which ordinarily is not used. Check out the tooling prices for carbide tooling that rockwell at 92 to 96 on Carbide A scale. Make sure you replace your Rockwell "c" diamond indenter with a carbide "A" diamond indenter. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo
Go Top
Share This