Go Bottom750 4x4 MFWD conversion parting parts dumb idea
 | Gannz
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2002-10-25 44203
Hello all. I'm guessing it's possible but wondering if it's feasible to add front wheel drive to my 750.
Needed parts? Front differential, front axle housing, front drive shaft & lever... anything else? Would I need a different steering arm?
Do you now where to find or look for someone parting out a 750 w/ MFWD? Do you think this would be the only way to make it worth while to add the front wheel drive?
Thanks for your time/input and remember... There's no such thing as a stupid question… only stupid people who ask questions. :-)
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL 
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2002-10-25 44206
I can not imaging how it would pay. You would need the gear link in transmission and manybe a different transmission.
I think it would be easier to sell the tractor and find a good 4x4 one. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-26 44220
Rather than repeat the details of earlier discussions, I'd say that a list of everything needed could be assembled from a parts manual.
My Ford parts manual gives different 2wd and 4wd parts numbers for a whole bunch of parts. I think the cost of required parts from a dealer would be more than a new tractor. Even if a 750 with a blown engine was found for parts, it probably would be easier to swap engines than do a drive conversion, and there's no guarantee all engine parts are the same. The idea could be pursued I suppose but it's probably absolutely a non-starter unless the 2wd and 4wd front axle mounts are the same.
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| YanmarJim
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 12 Southern Illinois
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2002-10-26 44234
Years ago several farmers around here added 4x4 to their combines. They called them "mud hog" rear ends. They took a steerable front end off some old retired 4x4 or purchased one at a junk yard. They added this to the rear and hooked up a hydraulic motor to drive this addition. This gave them gear ratio to match the main drive plus addional traction for their needs. This idea does work with a little fabrication, could be used on compact tractors. You might use a Toyota or Nissan 4X4 front differential or something similar. Cost would be dependant on your ability to scrounge, weld, fab., or hire reasonable skill. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-27 44258
Now that's an interesting idea.
I wonder how the hydraulically driven axle coordinates with the mechanically driven one? Something for me to think about. ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-10-29 44358
Tom JD in there infinite wisdom gave the hydraulic drive to there ag customers in the seventies. They were one of the most cursed items I've ever seen on a farm. Seems they pull good till the relief valve kicks in then you sit. They are an easy add on as they just go to the pumps for there power. On a 750 deere it would need an extra pump just to run it. They had to speeds one higher and one slower that just worked with the unit's normal speeds. The high speed will spin them up good when a little light on the front or rear as in a combine. They did help on a tractor but not as much as on the gear drive front ends. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-30 44412
Thanks Art. I was figuring something like that--the motor either turns into a pump or opens a relief to accommodate differences in speed. But it does sound like the 4wd could quit when it's needed most.
I guess that's also how power-track goes around corners, but possibly it's a more sophisticated design. I've never really thought about it, but the idea seems cheaper to build than differential gears.
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| YanmarJim
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 12 Southern Illinois
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2002-10-31 44497
I know the neighbors used theirs in very deep mud, I'm not sure about the by-pass, but I know it would have one. And I'm not saying that it would be equal to a new JD or even an older compact with 4x4 but it is do-able. It would provide front wheel "assist" at a very minimum investment(dependent on skill level) compared to trading up or buying another tractor for parts. The ratio used would need to be 4:10 or 4:55 or greater, something like the jeep rock crawlers use in the mountains. Just an idea.... ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-11-01 44518
Oops! Cheaper than differential gears did I say? Guess I meant cheaper than a mechanical drive-train since the hydraulic motor does turn a differential.
I think the original question was mostly curiosity as to what is possible. In that vein, I'm thinking through the idea myself. I think there'd be considerable difficulties of replacing a 2wd tractor front end with an automotive axle. Many 4wd tractors have pivot points on the front axle that would be difficult to reproduce in a conversion. Automotive axle housings are sprung and designed to carry load toward the ends. I don't know if automotive axles would have the strength to support typical tractor front end loads (with a loader mounted) if axle housing was loaded toward the centre. Rigging steering seems like quite a chore.
Anyway, bunch of things to think about. A supplemental axle as in the combine example seems easier to do than a replacement front axle. What to drive the hydraulic motor with is another thing, and running it from the tractor pump probably wouldn't work very well. I suppose automotive or light-truck rear axles wouldn't be a great fit, but as I recall, if you want a real low-geared axle, than an old hearse is a good bet.
An alternative just popped into mind. I recently saw an old utility tractor sitting for sale along the highway (maybe a Ford N). The second time I noticed it I saw that it was fitted with tracks. That seems like pretty good way to get more traction from a 2wd. Snowmobile trail groomers often are converted farm tractors fitted with tracks. Although one is stored just down the highway, I've never looked closely enough to figure if 4wd is essential for it or how it steers.
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-11-01 44524
Mud Hog is a brand name of fluid drive products owned by a company named Tuthill Ind. They have been around for many years and pioneered the rear wheel drive on combines described in a previous post.
The Mud Hog factory is located near our area.
Check this out http://www.mudhog.com/mudhog/mhdsm.htm
The Mud Hog system uses rolling lobe hydraulic motors to power the rear wheels of the combine. They have been in bussness for several years.
Hydraulic Front wheel drive has been around for several years. It was available on tractors as old as 4020's as a factory option. It has it's limitations.
On combines, if equiped with a hydrostatic trans, it's simple to install. Just plumb into the lines of the hydro pump, install the wheel motors and VIOLA! 4wd!. (This is somewhat oversimplified, but you get the idea) The Hydr trans is the secret to it's succes. Oil flows the path of least resistance so that eliminates a ratio problem. High draft on combines is improbable and in reality, non excistant. Combines pull nothing.
Now on a tractor, there is a different story. High draftin a tractor is eminent. In the early '80's MFGR's finaly gave up on hyd wheel motors for front axle drives. They are to inefficient to pull heavy loads. For an example, my father actually owned a JD 4630 with Hyd. FWD. When engageing the front axle, the Hyd. pump on the tractor used so much eng. hp. you had to drop at least 1 gear to pull the same load. Very in efficient. Now Mechanical FWD is the norm for tractors industry wide.
Back on the subject.
Changeing a 750 to a 755 is impractical. I'd recomend a trade of tractors, not parts.
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-11-01 44525
Lets look at this from a different perspective. You have a tractor now that is worth 3500 to 4500 bare. At best you will add 2000 dollar value to it if you add the factory style to it. To make it totally unique with some other type drive the value would be? Maybe what you started with! Now how much time will be needed to divise a drive system and install? I would say if you could do well with the factory system it would take 20 to 30 hours of labor to change, and this would be the best system for you. Used parts sell normally at half the price of new. What have you gained? ....
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| YanmarJim
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 12 Southern Illinois
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2002-11-01 44537
Art, Tom I agree. Probably wouldn't add value. Hydro certainly has limitations. I remember my neighbor talking about the 4020's (don't take offense) using more HP for their hydro pump than an IH tractor of similar HP. Seems that the IH could pull larger implements or travel more with identical implements. They swithched for several years to IH. They also turned up the pump for more HP. After several IH dealers faded due to Case/IH and other factors they went to JD green. One of them has around 70-80 antiques sitting in a nice new shed. Impressive.
I understand your position on a modification such as I suggested, it was just an idea.....But if the greenbacks are in short supply, who knows. ....
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| gannz
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-11-01 44538
Great discussion guys. Thanks for all the ideas.
Tom, That Ford w/ tracks sounds like it would be a good compromise. I could get by real well w/ just having 4WD in the snow and when doing heavy work w/ lots of tire spin. I use the 750 a lot on turf so I wouldn't want to leave the tracks on (I guess ???).
What does everyone think about how to rig something like this? ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-11-02 44545
Good thing I find this thinking through stuff entertaining. 'Cause soon as I do it somebody (and especially MrE and Art) is going to pop up and say: 'It's already been done, this is who did it and here's how it worked.'
Thanks to MrE for applying a hydraulics basic to the ratio problem. In tandem systems, the lightest load moves first no matter if it's cylinders or motors. However, if all four wheels were in tandem, you'd think that the traction would be reduced to whichever wheel had the least, but I guess conventional differentials work like that as well. I believe I can see how the principal allies to going around turns, but there's probably more to these designs than I'm grasping.
I'm sorry I didn't stop and take a closer look at the tracked utility tractor (I have a vague impression of red and gray, which makes me thing it's a Ford). My impression also is that the tracks didn't go around the front wheels, which would make me thing that there'd be idler wheels for the tracks between the front and rear wheels. No doubt somebody is going to identify it as a fairly common conversion before MFWD. The snowmobile groomer tracks do go around the front wheels and there are some sort of idler wheels between the front and rear as well.
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-11-02 44551
The systems you are refering to were marketed back in the fifties and sixtys and were used on the 8N ford tractors as well as Farmall M's and many more. The 8N might have been set up originally for snow grooming. The larger tractors were setup that way for getting crops in in wet fields. They won't fit the newer tractors as the largest tire they were made to fit was a 15" like a 15-5-38 tire. There is nobody building anything like it now as far as the steel tracks. The liability at the time was what stoped there production. They also made it quite hard to steer and often meant that they had to use the brakes to steer. Mattracks builds a simuliar system today but it is only offered for a tire of 13.6 width and they are built for your bigger rims like 42 or 54" diameter. There are some of the older systems out there but look at the point that connects the track links together as that is the largest wear point and the most likely to fail. Most recently I've been thru this looking for a more economical way to configure a snow groomer for our club. With the length of the track on the ground it would cause rutting just like all fixed track machines simuliar to the Cat Challanger in soft or tilled soils or on turf or hay fields limiting there uses. ....
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| Gannz
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-11-02 44558
Thanks for sticking your neck out Tom. :-)
Looks like MRETHICS summed it up well...
"Changeing a 750 to a 755 is impractical. I'd recomend a trade of tractors, not parts."
Since I'm not going to get a new one anytime soon, how about a few recommendations on tires/chains? For snow/heavy traction needs should I get a second set of rear tires & rims w/ wheel weights or add chains to my turf tires and rig the rims to take weights? Obviously cost would be a big difference but what other things to consider? Recommendations for types of chains and where to buy them? Simple/good way to mount some weights?
Keith
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-11-03 44564
Art: Thanks for the info as always. I'll post a pic of the groomer our local club uses. It's a converted NH farm tractor (7704 or something like that). A NH dealer did the conversion on a Provincial grant that enabled clubs to purchase groomers. Since it's a government grant, it's probably not an economical approach however.
Keith: Another discussion that you've probably seen talks about studded chains and mentions tirechains.com. Adding weight also helps and may be a better solution for all conditions. Art mentioned that chains aren't great on pavement. Unfortunately, loaded tires and wheel weights are about the only practical way to add weight to the rear. Loading is fairly inexpensive but has various drawbacks (There are plenty of discussion in the archives). Wheel weights are expensive.
A heavy implement on the 3ph adds weight but only when the 3ph is raised, which means that most implements can be carried but not used. Weight on the 3ph also lightens the front and reduces steering and wouldn't be a great solution for a front blade. A blade (front or rear) often needs all the steering it can get. However, there are suitcase weights and homemade devices for the front. I have heard of people putting chains on the front of 2wd tractors just for more steering but I don't know how effective they are.
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-11-04 44592
Thanks for all the kind words guys. There's nothing like haveing 20yrs. background in an industry. No diploma can duplicate all the trial and error(emphisis on error)that people such as myself, and probably Art, have expeirienced. While I've learned alot of the basics, in alot of subject matter, almost every time I log on, I gain knowledge. If I am ever in the situation of de-fuseing a bomb, I loggin' on here first. With a combined effort from you folks, I really think lives would be saved.
I truely belive, a person should learn something new every day, and our minds should be open to new things. But I also believe the old sayings "Those who forget history, are destined to repeat it". ....
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