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Normand
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2002-03-29          36843

Looking for advice and information on the 4100 compact utility with gear trans. I am currently looking for a used tractor around the JD 4100 size or JD 755. I have leads on a 4100 gear with a loader. I was told that the 4100 with gear transmission was not a good unit, especially when operating PTO driven attatchments, since the power to the PTO is cut off when shifting gears or stopping. I can see this being a real problem. On the contrary I was also told that the 4100 gear had a two stage clutch which allows shifting without cutting-off power to the PTO. Another downfall was shifting on the fly or loader work with the gear transmission?? Does anyone have any suggestions or comments that would help me make a dissision on buying the more affordable gear 4100 or a more expensive hydostatic.
email: normkoresources@shaw.ca


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Roy Jackson
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2002-03-29          36846

You might want to check with a dealer first to ensure the Gear tractor clutch is SNIGLE STAGE (which is what you describe) or a DUAL STAGE (Tractor movement stops when you depress the clutch ½, PTO stops when you depress the clutch fully).
I expect the dual stage may be optional. IF you buy used, this is one thing you might keep in mind.

My JD 670 (a precurser to the 4100) has a single stage clutch. That's the only thing I don't like about the tractor, however, it doesn't really interfere with mowing EXCEPT where you have to stop the machine completely (as if you need to back up). Shifting to another foward gear is fast. When I mow, I run in 2nd LOW. I push the clutch in when I turn, but rarely shift to another gear. There is one section of my lawn I have to back in and drive out for multiple passes (back and forth for ~40-50' by a width of 60-70').This is a slope of 25°-30°.I do stop completely before trying to reverse, however.And the lawn looks great there.

I did a little investigation to see if I could change over to the dual stage..never really followed through with it, though. Seems the consensus on CTB is that it isn't an easy transition. Never did ask the dealer, though.

Depending on your expected usage, you may never miss the dual stage clutch. I can't give you any particular instance where I have, but I only mow and push snow. I could see where tilling might be a problem. ....

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Roy Jackson
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2002-03-29          36847

I forgot to address the loader work. If you're in a hurry or do a lot of loader work, get the HST. Otherwise, the gear should be OK. ....

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DRankin
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2002-03-29          36849

My 4100 Gear will start from a dead stop, uphill, with a load, in any gear I choose. The best way to operate the tractor is to pick a gear, start and stay there as you work and use the foot throttle to vary your speed. The only pto driven tool I have is a post hole digger so I don't know how it operates moving with the pto running, but I will check and let you know. As to the loader work, it is a little more labor intensive than with an HST, but once you get the cadence it works well. ....

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Roy Jackson
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2002-03-29          36851

Mark, is your clutch single or dual stage?

With your Post hole digger..would you want to be moving during usage? Or did I misunderstand your post? ....

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DRankin
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2002-03-29          36852

My sale brochure says the 4100 Gear comes with an "economical transmission driven PTO" And if you step on the clutch every thing driven by the transmission stops... all drive wheels and both PTO's. The 4100 HST has an independant PTO. My clutch appears to be single stage, I have to push it all the way down to disengage the drive wheels. Hope this helps. ....

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DRankin
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2002-03-29          36853

Roy when I said 'it' I meant the tractor. I had never driven the tractor with the PTO running until just now and I can verify that the rear PTO stops as soon as the clutch stops turning the drive train. I can't see the mid PTO but it is driven from the same gear box. But you have an interesting idea there. Maybe a moving PHD will operate like a trencher.... just kidding folks. ....

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Roy Jackson
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2002-03-29          36860

"The best way to operate the tractor is to pick a gear, start and stay there as you work and use the foot throttle to vary your speed"

Yeah, but for running a finish or rotary mower, you need to maintain PTO speed (about 2500 RPM Engine speed on our tractors). ....

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DRankin
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2002-03-29          36862

Like I said, don't have one of those thingamajigs. I guess you would set the engine speed with the hand throttle to keep the PTO and mower at the correct speed and choose one of those 8 forward gears that produced the corrct ground speed. 540 PTO RPM's on the 4100 Gear call for 2650 engine RPMS and the follwing gears and ground speeds are available at 2650 engine RPM's:
1st....0.7 mph
2nd....1.2 mph
3rd....1.5 mph
4th....2.4 mph
5th....3.1 mph
6th....5.0 mph
7th....7.1 mph
8th....11.3 mph

Seems likely that one of these selections would mow the lawn. ....

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Normand
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2002-03-29          36866

Thanks for your info guys. I guess the best way to find out if the gear trans works for me is to try one first. I take it that shifting on the fly is a no option with the gear. ....

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TomG
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2002-03-30          36870

As far as I know a TX driven PTO can't be a live PTO or have a two-stage clutch, which really is the same thing. People did use PTO's just fine for decades before live PTO's became common. The early ones even lacked built in over-running clutches that are now almost standard. I believe some Kubota models also use TX driven PTO's, but I don't know if live PTO options are available.

TX driven PTO's should be OK for most people. As mentioned, a person can shift gears pretty quick. Mowers have a lot of inertia. They take a long time to stop without a PTO brake, so not a lot of RPM would be lost when shifting at least while mowing grass. Hogging saplings may be another story, but the quality of cut may be an issue when hogging. The PTO may stop when the clutch is in long enough for the tractor to stop. However, the PTO can be kept running by shifting to neutral and letting the clutch out.

I don't have a mower so I don't know if lack of a live PTO causes grief for people who are very particular about finish mowing. Myself, I'd probably go wild without live PTO. Under many conditions, my snow blower chute will clog if the PTO stops even for a second.
....

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Peters
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2002-03-30          36879

The main problem with a live PTO is not finish mowing but brush cutting. The inertia of the large mower will cause the tractor to continue moving when the clutch is depressed. If you are not careful it can place you into the fence, etc. ....

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Peters
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2002-03-30          36880

The main problem with a single stage PTO is not finish mowing but brush cutting. The inertia of the large mower will cause the tractor to continue moving when the clutch is depressed. If you are not careful it can place you into the fence, etc. You can move the transmission to neutral but things happen quickly. ....

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Normand
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2002-03-30          36881

The 4100 gear I found has Industrial tires, 410 loader and only 52hrs. They are asking $16,400 CAN. Is this a good buy?? I found another one Identical but HST with 73hrs and asking $18,000 CAN. Which one would you pick? I guess if you folks are from the US, we need to do a little converting at the current exchange rate which I'm not sure what it is. The Canadian dollar is probably only worth half of the US by now. ....

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DRankin
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2002-03-30          36882

Normand....Let me restate something at the risk of sounding condecending. On a tractor like the 4100 you do not work though the gears and accelerate like you would with a standard transmission on a car. The 4100 Gear does however have "collar" shifts between the gears and ranges you use and change the most. They describe it as a constant mesh transmission that makes shifting easier between 3rd and 4th, forward and reverse, and low and high. By way of example if I am going to drive my dirt road to the wood shed I will choose 3 high (6th) and bump along at 2000 rpm or so and maybe 4 mph, this is also the gear I might use if transporting a bucket full of dirt across the lot but I might back down a couple hundred rpms. If I am hauling trash down to the road for curbside pickup, I will start in 4th/High and two wheel drive (8th gear on the chart) because it is a long paved road. After you do it for a while you get an idea of the ground speed you will need for a given set of conditions and loads and you start and remain in that gear. If you choose a gear that is too high and you bog down it is a simple matter to take you foot off the throttle, drift the speed down and downshift. You have to experience it to believe what this little machine will climb or back out of in the lowest gears with the 4wd and the differential lock engaged. Mine will easily climb the front steps with the loader filled with firewood.
As far as which to choose...drive them both and get a feel for it. If the primary use is loader work like cleaning out the barn 3 times a week, or mostly mowing I might lean toward the HST. For the ultimate in simplicity and long term relibility and more traditional farm chores, pulling, pushing, lifting, plowing etc. .. I would get the Gear. Keep in mind you will lose a little power with the HST. Its rated PTO HP is 16, the Gear make 17 at the output shaft. ....

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DRankin
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2002-03-30          36883

Oh.. the price question.. my dealer just sold a new 4100 Gear with a loader and a 48" box blade for $15,300 US dollars. I don't know the current exchange rate either. ....

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DRankin
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2002-03-30          36885

Boy I should have more coffee, maybe I will remember everything I wanted to say. The brochure says the Geaar Model has a brake on the mid PTO. The HST has a brakes on both outlets. ....

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Normand
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2002-03-30          36896

Mark,
So what you are saying is that you can shift from high to low range and back to high with no difficulty and can do it while rolling, however between gears say second to third or third to second you should stop. Do I have this correct?? Do the gears work from 1low-1high then 2low-2high etc.. This allows you two ranges for each gear which you can select with ease, basically giving you two speeds for each of the 4 gears for a total of 8??? ....

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Roy Jackson
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2002-03-31          36898

Normand,
The pattern is a four speed with reverse. There is a high-low range selector lever. Select Low Range and the gears are 1 through 4, select High range and the gears are 5 through 8 (as shown in the JD Manual).

You can start in any gear...you can start moving as easily in 8th as you can in first. As Mark wrote in his post, you don't shift up through the gears to accelerate. You select the gear that best suits the work you're doing.
For example, if you're going to drive the tractor from one site to another over a paved road, you'd probably select 8th gear (Range Selector in High, Gear Shift in 4th) and let the clutch out. This equates to about 11.5 MPH with the small Deere.

If you're working, mowing for example, you may select Low Range, 3rd gear. A mower has to run at rated PTO speed (540 RPM which is at 2500-2600 engine RPM). The speed is set with a throttle lever and is constant. The selected gear determines the velocity of the tractor. You don't use a foot accelerator (you can, but it would be hard to maintain a constant PTO RPM).

Driving the tractor on the road..well, then using the throttle lever or the foot throttle is really your choice. I normally set the throttle (when driving on a road) at around 2000 RPM and use the foot throttle to increase RPM (hence, velocity) as required. ....

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DRankin
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2002-03-31          36899

I was quoting JD literature when I described the way it shifts. I find it is possible to shift between 3 and 4, high and low, and forward and reverse but I find I have to let the tractor coast nearly to a stop to do it. That sounds kind of bad but with all the gear drag built into the system I would quess that I can go from 9 or 10 mph in 4 high down to 2 or 3 mph in a couple of seconds without applying the brake. And as it coasts down I can shift into third and resume progress. But I don't have to do that very often. Maybe once every few hours of operation. As Roy said, It is like running your 4x4 pickup in low range. Just pick a gear and start, just figure out how fast you need to go and start there. Yes I have to stop if shifting from 2nd to 3rd. But You can walk as fast as 2nd gear will propel the tractor. 3rd and 4th in high range is where you will spend most of your time. And yes, you have four forward gears and two ranges, and four reverse gears with one range. It sound more complicated than it is. You should drive both a Gear and an HST and decide. ....

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Jerry Garrett
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2002-03-31          36902

I just bought a new 4100 with HST transmission,front-end loader and a Bushhog finish mower for $15,500. I really like the HST for loader work, a lot in fact. I had a JD 1070 previously and I never became proficient with the loader at all. The enjoyment of using the tractor has gone up expediently with my new 4100 HST, and for me personally that means a lot, since the toy factor plays a big role in my tractor experience. Of course it depends on the individual. Most people I know were much more proficient than I was with the gears, so I guess I needed a little bit of a crutch, and I'm willing to sacrifice the decrease in PTO power for it. ....

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TomG
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2002-03-31          36903

Sounds like 4100 gears work like my Ford. The 3 forward and 1 reverse gear on the steering column are synchromesh but the four ranges. When working the column gears provide an adequate range. I don't often have to shift between ranges so there's seldom is a need to stop. Since I do a fair bit of loader work, it's important that the reverse also is a synchromesh.

However, for my 3ph snow blower, which is worked in reverse, the four ranges are important. The ranges provide four reverse gears that provide decent choices of ground speed when working a PTO implement in reverse. I sort of like my gears, but a good thing about HST is that the engine can be put at PTO RPM, and the ground speed is continuously variable from stop until the engine runs out of power. In gear tractors, changing gears is the only control over ground speed at a given RPM. A choice of only two reverses may be limiting for snow blower work, but somebody here reported OK results with his two range JD.

HST's have benefits, but there are a couple of issues--higher purchase and (reportedly) higher maintenance costs and less efficiency than gears. The higher costs, well HST's are convenient and there's always payment for convenience. Less efficiency means lower PTO HP ratings for HST's. Mostly the efficiency issue really is a question of working speed. Lower PTO and draw bar HP usually just means working at slightly slower ground speeds. 6 of 1 1/2 doz of the other. The advice to try both and see which one suits seems pretty good.

The PTO issue mentioned by Peters is solvable by an external over-running clutch, but I'd be surprised if a 4100 didn't already have a built in one.
....

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jyoutz
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2002-03-31          36931

I have a 4100 gear tractor. I use it with a mid-mount mower, 410 loader, rototiller and other assorted plows, blades and scrapers. The 1 stage clutch can slow you down a bit if you're finish mowing and need to reverse. Also it is a little slower with loader work. But you get pretty proficient with clutching and shifting to where you hardy notice doing these things after awhile. My gear tractor handles all chores just fine, but I'm sure a little slower. Would I buy a hydrostat if I could do it over? Yes if cost were not a consideration, but I got such a good deal on my gear model that I couldn't turn it down. I'm pleased with my gear tractor. ....

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JKenna
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2002-04-01          36968

I have a 4100 gear used mainly for bush hogging and snow plowing. I haven't missed the HST at all in 2 1/2 years of work. I am adding a FEL this spring, so I may miss the HST then. The price savings was worth building a little extra muscle in my clutch leg.
....

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rdunstan
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2002-04-03          37024

Well, I have some real life experience here. I have had a JD1070 with a two stage clutch for the past five years. Last year we decided to get a smaller tractor for my other half specifically to mow the yard and for her to have a front loader (our version of a wheel barrow). Anyway, we bought a gear version of the 4100 after being reassured that is had a two stage clutch. WRONGO!!! The clutch is single stage and is IMHO useless for mowing and rototilling. With this particular tractor we had to go several feet before the mower came up to speed and could be let down to mowing height. The roto tiller was not much better. We took the tractor back to the dealer and and paid the extra $$ for HST. It works much better for our use.

I am still prefer a gear tractor, but the JD 4x00 series doesn't have a two stage clutch available until either the 4400 or 4500 models. ....

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jyoutz
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2002-04-03          37036

I don't understand these problems you mention with mowing and rototilling at all. I use my 4100 gear precisely to do those two things. Especially no problem with rototilling. I always stop my tiller when I get to the end of the row anyway and then raise tiller and turn around. Run in low range, 1st gear, hand throttle set at about 1500 RPM. Release clutch and quickly move throttle up to PTO speed. Then off I go to till another pass. Sounds more complicated than it really is. ....

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TomG
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2002-04-04          37041

Sounds like the problem was resolved, and I hope the $$'s were the difference between a 4100 with and without HST.

I've heard what Jim is saying many times. People mowed just fine for decades before live PTO or even over-running clutches. Live PTO with or without HST is just more convenient.

I imagine the mower would have worked best if the engine were run continuously at PTO RPM. Mowers have a lot of inertia. It make take them awhile to come up to speed, but it also takes then awhile to slow down. A mower can be brought up to speed while the tractor is stationary by shifting to neutral and declutching. It does, sound that HST has made everything a little happier, so there's no need to belabour operation of a TX driven PTO.

I suspect that manufacturers did some cost cutting by reducing the number of options available across their models. HST probably is what sells best in smaller tractors, so why offer two different gear transmissions? Most people who really want live PTO in a small tractor probably are inclined towards HST anyway. Larger tractor buyers tend to do more fieldwork where gears still retain some advantage over HST. A large tractor buyer may definitely want both gears and live PTO. If that configuration isn’t offered, the buyer just goes somewhere else.

I'm pretty sure Kubota does much the same. I've heard that some of their models have TX driven PTO's but I don't know if live PTO is an option with gear TX's on all their models.
....

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