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 | deerefan
Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 0 Wabash, IN 
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2002-03-06 36141
I am new to the board and have some confusion on the 4100 tractor. I am seeing from many posts here that the 4100 is made in Japan by Yanmar. A JD dealer told me that the 4100 engine & trans. are built in Japan but the tractor itself is assembled in Augusta, Georgia. Anyone have any further information to clarify this?
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 | dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine 
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2002-03-06 36146
Your dealer is right. The 4100 IS made buy Yanmar of Japan (which is a GOOD thing, meaning quality), and it is Assembled in Augusta,Ga.
David ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada 
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2002-03-07 36162
As of last summer the 4100 was designed and assenbled in Japan, and shipped here in a crate where it was joined with its tires and wheels. The sales brochure for the 4100 I bought last May is clear that the 4200 and up are from the plant in Georgia. All 4000 series engines are made by Yanmar. ....
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| deerefan
Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 0 Wabash, IN
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2002-03-07 36164
Thanks for the info. So, does this mean that items like the ROPS, seat, hood, fenders, and other items are added after they get the tractor engine, trans.,& frame to Georgia? Sorry for my ignorance. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-07 36167
To the best of my knowledge, the 4100's never see georgia, they are put on the market out of a california warehouse. ....
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| deerefan
Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 0 Wabash, IN
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2002-03-07 36169
So, the 4100 being built in Japan is a good thing? ....
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| dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine
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2002-03-08 36190
Yes, It is a Quality thing. John Deere should have allowed Yanmar to design and build the entire 4000 series. We owners would have had many less headaches.
David ....
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 | cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York 
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2002-03-09 36210
I owned a 4100 the first year they were out. Not a bad tractor at all, was just a bit too small (read HP) for my use. The nicest part about the machine is the ease at which the attachments come on and off. The 60" belly deck is perfect for it and the machine is a nice blend of steel and composites. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-12 36279
Sorry guys, I was out of town for the last 6 days and forgot to bring the laptop with me. As far as Japanese quality and engineering, in my experience they are the best in the world. Several years ago Consumer Reports published an interesting article. They looked for the best, most reliable American vehicle and came up with the Ford pick up truck. It averaged only three warranty claims per vehicle. They compared it with the worst Japanese vehicle they could find and found that to be a Subaru. The Suby averaged one warranty claim for every third vehicle and the Toyota, like the Corolla at the time were off the charts at something like one claim for every twelve vehicles. I think it is because the Japanese government imposes testing standards that would make American manufacturers scream for mercy. They simply will not let any product out of the country that isn’t damn near perfect. With reasonable care almost any Japanese engine will go 200,000 miles and still run like a Swiss watch. ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-12 36281
Mark;
The Toyota Corolla's sold here are made in Freemont CA and Cambridge Ont. I believe there is also a plant in Europe. Of the plants making Corollas a few years ago the Canadian plant had the highest rating. I don't know now.
One of the main Toyota design studios is in California.
Subarus are only made and designed only in Japan.
According to the team concept diversity of people improves the thought process. American Auto Companies compete quite well in Europe and provide a much better quality car than here.
Maybe the problem is the monolythic american culture in the auto industry not the workers that is the problem? I know of a few talented people that have been bumped through the big three only to get discussed with the whole American based industry. ....
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| deerefan
Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 0 Wabash, IN
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2002-03-12 36283
Not to be cynical but is comparing auto mfg. to tractor mfg. like comparing apples & oranges or is this quality standard universal in Japan? I am old enough to remember the time when anything labeled "made in Japan" was to be avoided at all costs! I just don't have the knowledge about the quality of Japanese tractors. From what I am seeing here on the board though, I becoming convinced that tractors from Japan are a good thing after all. ....
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| MarkS
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-03-12 36287
If you think about it, GM owns a major part of Toyota and Isuzu, and Ford Owns a Major part of Mazda (and many others I'm sure), The Engineering of many Japanese vehicle is now shared with american vehicles (Ford Escort is basically a Mazda Protoge, and the Mazda Pickup is a Ford Ranger). I know the tractors are on a mch different scale than cars, but the engineering is pretty much shared these days. I think quality boils down to the comitment from the people building the vehicles and the attention to detail and testing done by each company. That being said, if the employees of a company are satisfied and fulfilled by their jobs I'm sure they build a better product. So the real question is, are the Japanese more apt to enjoy their work or are Americans? I hope the answer is Americans. (Man did I open a can of worms here) ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-12 36288
If all the questions were easy to answer then companies would nto be as willing to waste money on these large consulting firms.
I think part of point I was trying to make with my last post was that the cars with the highest rating for quality were actually made and partly designed in North America. The key difference is the attitude of management and the management culture. The Toyota plant in Cambridge Ont. was started small and expanded in predetermined steps. The Toyota was committed to the workers hired and was determined not to create a confrontational work climate. This becomes counter productive and inhibits worker initative.
In the American companies the works have become a resource, an items to be used up in the process. Confrontation is there is some cases for confontation sake or to obtain consessions.
Case in point. The Jeep Wrangler assembly line had been in Toledo since the inception of the Jeep. It had also been in the same factory since the inception of the Jeep. When Chrysler decided to build a new plant they immediately threatened to move the plant out of Toledo area. They bargained from there and eventually built the new plant in Toledo but what did they loose in terms of employee loyalty in the process?
The answer is yes, the Japanese and American employees are more contented at the Japanese facilities than the big 3.
If you get the Janes Automotive map of the world with all the plants listed and all the ownerships labeled with colored lines it looks like the map of the London or Tokoyo undergrounds. The main effect is the transplant of talent in these transfers.
The second question is quality. I don't believe you can obtain high quality with disgruntled employees. The day of pay = quality or happiness is long gone. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-12 36289
I reckon I was the one who opened the can of worms. It is true that in the immediate post war period many Japanese products were considered rather shoddy and cheap. This is exactly what prompted the government to impose export quality standards. And those standards applied to every product exported from the country. And yes, they know how to invest in and care for employees. I also acknowledge that most of the Japanese manufacturers have plants all over the world, but the business model was conceived more than 30 years ago in Japan and they exported their work ethic and quality consciousness to every plant they built elsewhere. I guess you can say that the quality of the products speaks for itself. The only debate is how it got to this level and what keeps it there. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-12 36294
Mark
Much of the quality and manufacting system used by the Japanese is based on work by Demming, an American. Here the quality standards and manufacturing principles, ie just in time manufacturing did not start to be looked at until the Japanese had started to clean house automotively.
Kind of like the VCR, the TV, etc.
What caused the condition? Prejudice and arrogance. We did believe that the Japanese's (Demmings) new system was better, how could it be it was developed by Japanese and there was no way we would change as we had built up a world superpower with the system we developed and what people brought to this country.
Sorry balance of trade figures don't lie, we are in trouble if we don't learn a better way. We can not continue to sell off the country and expect to retain our standard of living.
Peters ....
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| Mr Ed
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-03-14 36338
An interesting debate here but I finally had to jump in. Has anyone looked at Japan lately? The Japanese economy has been in trouble for the last ten years. In many ways they are going through the same changes the US went through in the 70s. They are being squeezed by nations with a lower cost structure (i.e., China) in manufacturing. However, unlike the US, their economy and culture is not as flexible to shift gears to other industries such as software and biotech. Name one major world class software company that is headquartered in Japan. There are none.
Yes, many Japanes firms make great products and there are also plenty that make junk. Same with American companies. There were many reasons why Japan enjoyed the advantages it did in the 70s and 80s, one of which was an artificially low exchange rate.
Focusing on a single metric like Balance of Trade numbers is misleading. What does this mean anyway? It can mean we are consuming more than we produce. This is probably not so good. It can also mean our economy is doing so much better than another country's such as Japan's that we have excess income for consumption of goods from other countries. This is a good thing for us. Not so good for them. So we pay Japan and other countries with dollars. What do they do with them? They don't hide them under a mattress. They invest those dollars and spend them right back here in the US.
China always has a big trade surplus. Are they better off than us or enjoy a better standard of living? No way!
In any event I like my JD 4100. In the global economy, Fords are made in Mexico, Toyotas in the US and JDs in Japan. You really don't know where parts are being sourced. Surveys consistently rank American workers overall as the best educated, most productive in the world. If the Japanese can make better tractors and we can make better software, then this makes perfect sense to me. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-14 36343
The Japanese have gone through some trouble lately. Part of the problem was the high wages in Japan. Although the manufacturing system was stream lined to provide better and more efficiently producted products, the system of distribution of good and services was terrible. Here a company like Walmat, Home Depot, Lowes etc. purchases goods from manufactures, distributes them to their stores and provides them for sale to their customers. In Japan there is/was five or six layers before they made it to the store. The result was the cost of living was very high. You could buy consumer good from Japan much cheaper here or in other asian nations. Japanese manufactures started looking for lower cost centers for manufacturing.
I do not see how anyone can see a 200 billion dollar trade deficit as positive. Yes some may return are reinvestment but as money become more internationally mobile more and more we must become the puppet on the string to keep the funds in the country. We are just beginning to understand the effect on Wall Street. (think Enron)
There are a lot of patches in the software industry. Software companies are reliant on the creative people with math skills to develop the new software. Is the US teaching high level math skills or is it reliant on importing people? Unfortunately India, Russia, Japan etc. have better high math skills. If the US looses favour with immigrants, help!! Sorry old code, old computers and office building will not keep the industry here. How long did it take MS to relocate in Seattle?
What percentage of the biotech industry is foriegn owned now? The names have changed but the alot of the bigger companies are international european companies. The industry is also reliant on foriegn talent.
When students pick a university based on sports team's records rather than academics what do we expect?
I feel like the dead canary here.
Dr. Peters ....
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| cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2002-03-14 36346
Sad but true Dr. Peters. The expectations of the students, or the children in general are much lower than they were for the people involved in creating the richest nation in the world. I am honestly and openly upset by future prospects, unless we get rid of the current philosophy that exists in our public schools, courts and welfare systems, we stand to end up with a similar fate as that of the Soviet Union. A government can not promote irresponsible behavior and practice re-distribution of wealth (read take from the productive to give to the non-productive) and expect to nurture the pride and personal committment shown by citizens of certain asian nations. I don't beieve "corporate greed" has anything to do with the quality of the workforce. I am currently in the process of hiring three people. The problem I am having is that the job postings are currently internal to the company, a company that pays well and treats it's employees with kid's gloves. So far, I have one successful candidate. That individual has displayed a high work ethic in the past and has a good attitude. We are posting to other areas of the company now with the knowledge that we can teach the technical skills, but have to look elsewhere for the work ethic, integrity and attitude, those can't be taught by an employeer. ....
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| Mr Ed
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-03-15 36366
I guess I see it different. Sure we have problems but the US is still the best place to live and work and I think this will continue into the foreseeable future. Our colleges and universities, although a bit obsessed with political correctness are the envy of the world. Our economic system still is the best environment to foster the start up of new companies and innovation.
I don't see any end in the near future to people wanting to come here. Yes, China, Russia and other countries may produce more Math graduates and scientists but the limiting factor in those countries is the economic and political systems. The lack of free speech, protections for private and intellectual property, checks and balances on the government will be the limiting factor, over time to development in these countries. This ill not change in these countries any time soon and even if it did, the culture of these countries could still be a limiting factor.
If you looked at the history of our country, many of the same arguments you are making have been made before. Certainly the outlook for the US was much bleaker in 1862, 1932, 1942 and to a certain extent the late 70s. I remember reading in the late 60s how Russia would surpass the US in GDP by the late 70s. It was all based on extrapolation from the previous 15 years. What a fairy tale that is.
I remember the boasts of the Japanese in the 80s how America's time had past and that the 20th century was the US century but that the 21st century would be the Japanese century. Not likely.
No, I will have to disagree. In spite of the problems we might have and the threat of terrorism, the outlook for the United States has never been better. We will solve whatever problems we face. The thing that people always underestimate about the US and the thing I feel is our greatest asset is the ability to adapt, re-invent ourselves and move forward. While other nations will certainly improve their position in the world, which I view as good, 50 years from now, I believe the US will still be the leader of the free world and the country that most people look to and aspire to live in.
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| MarkS
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-03-15 36369
Mr. Ed I have to agree. There is no other country in the world that I would rather live or work in. The US does have it problems, but I believe as a whole the benefits far outweigh the problems. ....
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| cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2002-03-15 36373
You both have excellent points, however we have not seen the degredation of values nor twisting of the constitution's meaning to this extent ever in our history. Believe me, I pray I am totally wrong. I love this country too much and would die for it any day, if needed. ....
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| Deerefan
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-03-15 36374
Wow, This discussion sure has metamorphasized since I ask if the 4100 being manufactured in Japan was good or bad! But, it's great to see the input and ideas that are being posted. I think I'm convinced that the 4100 quality & durability is not deceiving and not something to be leary of. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-17 36427
Unfortunately this discussion has gotten off the simple proposition of is tha Japanese assembled tractor better or worse than the US assembled tractor.
It is interesting that the Japanese assembled JD tractor is considered less problems than the US assembled JD. I tried to point out that the north ameican assembed Toyota had a higher rating than the Japanese assembled cars mentioned.
From experience working with Japanese and American assembly plants in NA, I tried to ellude to the fact that I feel there is a better working relationship with in the Japanese plants than the American plants. I felt that part of the problem is the confrontational system bred within the american plants.
There are a lot of incentive and disincentives in the work place. When a company pays a high level manager 40 times what the individual on the floor is making and his performance is not been based on his true performance only stock manipulation. Their greed become a disincentive across the company.
I have seen where the COO makes a bonus as much as the total profits from the company in a year.
I have been in companies where the plant has doubled its production in a year and due to monitary exchange rates the workers recieved a smaller bonus. Naturally the managers are not affected. The result is a confrontational exchange.
I am sorry the "I've got mine who gives a damm about anyone else!!" attitude is going to distroy this country.
In evironmental areas anyone down stream from the source is at risk. We have talked about the total lack of awareness of the risks locally in other posts, but the attitude towards problems that extend across borders have not improved significantly. Frankly we don't care what the world's environmental concerns are: our government's response to everything is plausable denial. Look at our initial response to acid rain, CFC's ozone, greenhouse gasses etc. How does this affect our relationship with Europe, Canada and other friendly nations?
Rain is falling in southern Ontario with a PH of 2 (lemon juice) and our governments says it is not sure that acid rain is real, we need to study the problem. When a Nobel prize is awarded to chemists for high altitude research and the US government says they are not sure there is a problem with the CFC chemicals and the ozone. When greenhouse gases are increasing and the US who is the largest polluter says it does not like the resolutions to try and curb emmissions. But has not even suggested an alternative in 3 years. Frankly we are the people with the most to loose, besides Bangladesh. How much of a increase in ocean height would distroy this country? A 10 ft rise in oceans? If a terrorist attack destroying one office complex in NY causes a recession, what will the flooding of the eastern seaboard?
2001 was the first year on record that the ice melted on the north pole.
Do we expect that the world will come to our aid if the destruction is of our own making? I know the current mood in Canada concerning fresh water problems is you have plenty of fresh water, if you did not pollute it, and your attitude toward the environment wasn't so poor, so forget it.
Unfortunately the current attitude affects aspects other than the environment. We may leave the country in as an environmental disaster, but we are ensuring that we have it morgage it to the hilt and with the facilities sold to foriegners. All to maintain our standard of living.
To me patriotism means more than standing up to fight to protect my things or my freedoms. It also means caring about the country (land and sea heritage)and the people present and future. It also means being the canary, despite the fact that the canary dies to protect the miners. Looking at ourselves in different lights than the norm is difficult for people in this country. We would rather fight (verbally and physically) than change despite the fact that fighting may not be the correct response. To the world we come across as less than intelligent. We are not inclined to look at the facts before we open our mouths or drawing the sword. Sober second thought, with a review of the facts, is not our long suit. We tend to believe what ever the media or government says rather than reading more information. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-18 36460
Plenty of food for thought here, but please please please not too much politics stuff. I have prominent social and political values myself and sometimes they do spill over in my posts, but I do try to keep a tractor focus. There are other sites where I can get plenty of politics and attitude along with my tractors should I wish to do so.
All comments so far seem well put and well held. My problem is not with this discussion, but with the sorts of exchanges and content such discussions have produced other times and other places. This site has been a haven for me and I'd sort of like it to stay that way.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-21 36577
I'm sorry if this got like the peeling an onion. I did not consider this political. Personally I am very Apolitical and try to consider only the best man running for the position or lack there of. Stupidity knows no political boundaries.
They anounced at a large portion of an antartic glacier fell off his week. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-21 36579
Being from Alaska I know that ice sheets and glaciers calve all the time. That means they are GROWING not retreating. Dumping ice of the end of the conveyor belt into the ocean means there is more being produced upstream or in this case, uphill. Then they say this has never happened since the last ice age. How the hell would they know that? Images from prehistoric satellites? ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-21 36580
Being from B.C. I also am not ignorant of the fact that the glaciers have been retreating since the last ice age and the conveyor effect. It is not the retreat it is the rate.
If we look at the snows of Kilamanjaro or lack there of, we get an indication of the problem.
Analysis of the ice and history is very simple. They core the glacier and then analyse the ice, trapped gasses and residual material (dust). From this they have a record like the rings on a tree. How do you think they know that the CO2 level is increasing in the air and how the rate is increasing.
By the way the glaciers in AL are also retreating rapidly.
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| Jim on Timberridge
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 172 La Crosse WI
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2002-03-21 36585
geez, how did my connection to the compact tractor website board get diverted off to an special edition of the Capital Gang Meets Politically Incorrect?
jim
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-21 36586
It was one of the following:
1) I was cleaning my keyboard and it went off.
2) I made some statements that pushed Peters' button.
3) The dog ate my homework(that one used to work). ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-03-21 36595
It id just like the show Connections
Tractor where is it assembled?
Why is Japan quality better?
Is it the country or the system?
= Can of worms
We are obviously loosing the thread.
Time to start a new one Jim. How about "Why are John Deere Green?" ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-03-22 36601
It's because they high jump John's 8' fences to get into his pasture. Alternatively, and demonstrating my tractor focus, it's because the engines have sleeves. Get it? Green Sleeves Yuk Yuk Yuk. Time for me to quit. ....
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| Jim on Timberridge
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 172 La Crosse WI
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2002-03-22 36604
Now that Peters brings it up, here is a question on JD Green i'd like an answer to:
My JD dealer sells two versions of JD green in spray paint -- one is for lawn and garden, one is for ag. If i want to touch up implements or my 4700, which do i use? I haven't seen anything that tells me whether JD considers the green on 4xxx's to be L&G or Ag. The dealer just shrugged.
Or do they fill the cans from the same vat?
(now isn't this better than why US-Inc can't compete with Japan-Inc ??)
jim ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-03-22 36628
My dealer knows the difference. I used AG green on my 4100 and it was a perfect match. ....
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