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Matt
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2001-03-28          26032

I'm having problems getting my 4200 4X4 into gear sometimes. It has the SyncShift tranny. I have a hill of about 20 degrees and when I stop on it while going down I almost can't get it into reverse. I think I may have bent the lever and have broken the plastic around it trying to get it into reverse on the hill. It seems to have a problem on the hill when I stop and try to go into 1st also, but if I roll a little it will go in easier. When on flat ground it is sometime hard to get into any gear. I'm not sure if it's a clutch problem or tranny problem. Has anyone else had this problem??? My dealer says he's contacted JD and they tell him it is oil loggin around the clutch because of all the oil being at the front of the gearcase while on the hill. It seems to me that the clutch may not be disengaging fully?? Any advice would be appreciated.

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Jim
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2001-03-29          26039

Trade it in on a Kubota. ....

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Jim Reichard
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2001-03-29          26045

Hi Matt, To the best of my memory that system is only has syncro rings in foward gears not reverse. which means you should shift easy up shift or down shift but you may have to fiddle with it to get it in reverse. It does sound like you have a problem posibly with your clutch not releasing. I'm not buying what your dealer is saying ,I think you might want to call John Deere direct and tell them whats happening.
GOOD LUCK!
JIM ....

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Art White
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2001-03-29          26068

Matt the 4100 Deere uses a dry clutch, It sounds like your trans might be winding up. Does it do it in two or four wheel or both? How does it shift on the level? ....

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Matt
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2001-03-29          26076

My 4200 uses a wet clutch. I have to use four wheel drive because I need the braking going down the steep hill. On level ground it will go in much easier, but still is sometimes harder to get into gear than I think it should be. ....

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Matt
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2001-03-29          26077

I'm not sure on the syncro's in reverse. It seems like it does have them in reverse, because it never grinds any gears and goes into reverse normally with no problem even if I'm moving forward a little. From some of the problems I've read about here on the CTB board, I am wondering if I don't have a problem with the clutch. The tractor isn't even a year old yet with less than 70hrs on it. Does anyone know the number for JD direct off hand??? ....

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Roger L.
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2001-03-29          26091

Before you call JD, it might be worth your time to try the same move on the hill in 2wd as well as 4wd. What you are describing sounds a lot like a normal 4wd "wind up". ....

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JeffM
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2001-03-30          26105

Matt, the JD Customer Care Center number is 1-800-537-8233. Good Luck. ....

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kay
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2001-03-30          26106

Matt
Some of the facts you point out seem to be conflicting. You stop on the 20 degree (36%!) slope to put the tractor into reverse? You need the tractor in 4wd to get the braking power? What kind of operation are you doing on this steep slope? Mowing? Loader work? grading? logging? Rogers thought that the 4wd windup is the problem seems to make sense. But how often would one be stopping on a 20 degree slope, and for what? Just curious. On the surface, it does not sound like a tractor problem, but then I am not there. ....

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Matt
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2001-03-30          26112

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by conflicting??? I have this hill to overcome to get to the riverbottom behind my house which I want to clean up and mow and such. The soil was very loose and unlevel. I had a guy give me a bunch of dirt (mostly clay), so I was trying to move it down the hill and dump it and back up the hill. Well evey time I stopped to back up is when I had the problem getting into reverse. I would have gone down and turned around or went down backwards, but there is a spring coming out of the hill that makes it very soft which is what I covered up with the new dirt. Does this make any sense??? It's kind of hard to describe. I've got the dirt moved, but would like to put gravel on top of it for a good base, which I will use the loader for again. I absolutely cannot go down front wards with a bucket of dirt and expect the rear wheels only to do the braking and keep my speed held back. The tractor did very well at moving the dirt, but just had a problem getting into reverse. I'm going to try going frontwards and see if it does the same thing. My dealer told me to drain the oil to the bottom of the sight glass, I may try that also. It shouldn't be a problem after I get the gravel on though since I won't be stopping on the hill anymore. I'm not sure what you guys mean by 4wd windup either? If it's what I think you mean by the front and back ends being in sort of a bind, I don't see why that would effect the shifting of gears? ....

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Matt
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2001-03-30          26114

I may try it in 2wd, but not with the loader on and I'll have the weight box on back, so to make sure I have enough traction in the rear for braking. I also want to try it going uphill and see if it does the same thing. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-03-30          26118

Matt, its not unreasonable to use it on hills just as you describe. I have some of the same types of problem. But it is unreasonable to expect it to be able to shift while you are doing so.....even if you come to a complete stop. Here is why: The front and rear axles do not turn at exactly the same speed. Part of that is by design and part because nothing is perfect. This means that the front and rear drive shafts are turning at very slightly different speeds as well. Since both the front and rear drive shafts are being driven by the same output gear then either a tire has to slip, or the driveshafts and the gearbox shafts end up in a slight bind. Hopefully not enough to damage anything, but the bind is too much to make the gears slide easily on the shifting shafts. We call this shaft "wind up". The shafts will always wind up a little bit, and the idea is for a wheel to slip before the drive shaft winds up so much that something fails. Another better way to design around this is to include a third differential or viscous coupling between the front and rear axles. This is common in full time 4wd cars to prevent this very problem. So far it hasn't made it to the tractor world. Nothing is perfect. ....

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Rob Munach
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2001-03-30          26123

I have to disagree with the axle windup causing the hard shifting. The binding occurs in the transfer case, not in the transmission. Windup would make it difficult to shift from 4wd to 2wd but has no effect on the main transmission. I have tried this in my part-time 4wd truck and my 4wd JD790 - windup had no effect on changing gears.

It sound more like a clutch drag problem. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-03-30          26124

I agree that the difficulty in shifting should be much more evident in the transfer case. But I think I can feel mine in the transmission as well. If you load a gear, it transmits it's torque all the way down the line. Of course the farther you go away from the initial spring, the less the load. That's why we need Matt to do as many tests on it as possible.
Come to think of it Rob, I think you have just suggested another test. Matt should try shifting into and out of 4wd as well as between gears when he is in one of these situations that make shifting difficult. We'll figure it out yet. ....

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TomG
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2001-03-31          26126

I'm guessing that reverse is synchro. It is on my old Ford 1710, and lack of it would make loader work awkward. I haven’t thought out how a synchro reverse actually works. However, in forward gears, all gears are in constant mesh, so there wouldn’t be gears grinding. The purpose of synchromesh is to help match the speeds of the input and output TX shafts, and they have an ability to match fairly different speeds. For example, I have no problem going from 3rd to 1st on the synchro part of my TX or going from forward to reverse at low speed. I wonder how much a clutch would have to drag before the input shaft would spin fast enough to exceed the synchro capability (at a stop, the output speed shaft wouldn't be turning). Anyway, a couple of tests might sort out the idea of clutch drag. First, if it's a two stage clutch, the PTO likely would be slightly powered if the clutch was dragging. Second, if the problem is minimal at engine idle and worse as RPM increases, then maybe clutch drag is the answer. A remote possibility that no one would want to hear is that there is enough flex in the drive train to allow shafts to bind, given load and weight transfer on a steep hill. That possibility, although unlikely, would not be good news at all. A possible fix is to ignore the problem and back down the hill. I realize that the question of ‘back down and foreword up a hill’ or the reverse is a bit controversial. I keep thinking that under many conditions, backing down a hill provides the most traction because of weight transfer to the large rear wheels. At any rate, all these ideas including 2wd vs. 4wd have safety implications. It's a good idea to be aware of the risks when playing on a hill just to test theories. ....

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harvey
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2001-03-31          26128

Matt This subject is beaten very well. My first thought is the clutch is not completly releasing. BUT if free travel is OK. Check ALL the linkages. Remove the side covers look for loose, bent or unlubricated areas that could bind. I had some difficulty with the range shifter and lubricating the universals and other pivot points cured it. I normaly tend to forget stuff like that since every thing seems to be greaseless nowdays. ....

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Matt
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2001-03-31          26138

Well, it was a nice day here today, so I got the tractor out and tried a bunch of different combinations to eliminate possibilities. I first tried going downhill and putting the bucket down to hold me on the hill and tried both 4wd and 2wd. Problem still exists in both. Then I went down and turned around facing uphill and tried both 4wd and 2wd. It didn't seem as bad especially in reverse, but 1st seemed worse than before. This may be a judgment call on my part that's kind of hard to measure. I then took the loader off and put left the weight box on and faced downhill and tried 4wd and 2wd and the problem still existed. I went down and turned around and faced uphill and it was the same as if I had the loader on. So, I'm going to say it's the clutch not releasing fully. However, I'm not sure why it is worse on the hill. The only thing I haven't tried is draining some of the fluid from the rearend, but I have a feeling it won't make a difference. I'll let you know what I come up with. ....

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Matt
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2001-03-31          26139

I just thought of another test I need to try. I should try shifting ranges and using different ranges. I also have thought of another remote possibility to the cause of the problem. I'm not sure how the clutch is setup, but would it be possible that there is enought end play in the shaft that the clutch is mounted to that it might have enough mass to cause it not to disengage fully? Like I said I'm not sure how this clutch is set up, but it's just a thought. ....

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Tom
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2001-03-31          26141

I had a Kubota L345DT that did that sometimes, what I would do is take it out of first gear then back in first gear then reverse it worked every time.
Just a Thought.
Tom ....

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Roger L.
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2001-03-31          26143

Matt, I'd have to say that - as much as I liked it - that the windup theory is not going to fit the facts. And it doesn't seem to be related to 2wd/4wd at all. I guess you have tried taking your foot off the brake so that the wheels can move fractionally...that's sometimes necessary so that the transmission shafts can rotate enough to let you shift gears.. And if that wasn't it, then I'm beginning to lean toward the clutch dragging, too. You wouldn't happen to have a good exploded diagram of that clutch system would you? The explanation from JD and the dealer about the oil around the clutch sounds a little confusing. It would help to see via a picture what he is trying to say. ....

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TomG
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2001-04-01          26152

Sounds like the same sorts of problems are present both going up and down hill. If true, then some of the previous explanations seem fairly unlikely. My load-shift shaft-bind possibility, the dealer's oil explanation and your end-shaft play possibilities now seem unlikely. Clutch drag does seem a likely explanation. I know some of my ideas get lost in my many words. So, I'll note again that a sure sign of clutch drag is if the PTO shaft rotates when the clutch is fully depressed. Another good sign is if the problem becomes worse when going from shifting at low idle to shifting at PTO RPM. Why only on a hill in either direction? The reason could be really obscure and it might be a good idea to definitely identify the problem before pondering the why. However, as somebody noted, checking the pedal for free-play is a good idea. I'd add that you might want to check for free-play both on a level and on the hill. ....

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keoke
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2001-04-01          26154

Matt, to prove or disapprove the dragging clutch theory try temporarily taking the pedal free play down to near nothing. This should push the pressure plate as far back as it will go. If you still got the problem, and assuming the plates are not warped, then you know it is time to look at something else.
A pilot bearing that is not as free as it should be will also keep the trans input shaft turning when it should not be turning. However, it is hard to beleive that this bearing could be a problem an almost new tractor.

good luck,
george ....

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Roger L.
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2001-04-01          26156

Good idea Keoke. As you say, if it works it shows us the problem. If nothing changes it could still be clutch drag but at least we are closing in. ....

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Matt
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2001-04-02          26197

I tried a few more things that convince me even more that it is the clutch. I took all of the freeplay out of the clutch and went back to the hill. Nothing changed, still hard to get into gears. I also tried A range which turned out to be more proof for me. While holding the brake and trying to put it into reverse the tractor tried to move backwards and was still very hard to get into reverse. It was like the tractor was taking up the slack in the brakes. I also could completely let off the brakes and just trying to put it into gear held it still. I have noticed similar things like this on flat ground now that I think about it. When in A range on flat ground I try to put it into any gear and the tractor jerks like an automatic car. This doesn't seem right to me, it has to be the clutch. The only thing I still haven't tried but don't think it'll make a difference is draining some of the oil. Anybody got any more suggestions before I call my dealer??? ....

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keoke
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2001-04-02          26212

Hi, the fact that tractor moves with the clutch pedal fully depress while trying to engage reverse means that the input shaft to the tranny is still turing when it shouldnt be. The brass blocking or sychro rings, through fricton are trying to match input and output shaft speeds which is why the tractor moves a little. On a dual plate clutch, like you have, both plates must free of their pressure plates. The second plate is used for the pto and should also be free. Sometimes, not often, if the pto is not used for a long peroid rust may form between disc and it's pressure plate causing some drag. This is especially true on the newer metallic clutch linnings which are now used in place of the older asbestos linnings now considered toxic.
Try meshing the pto and pressing the pedal all the way down while watching the pto output shaft to see if it starts and stops turning with pedal movement.

good luck,
george ....

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Randy Eckard
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2001-04-03          26243

Just to clear up something. Clutch on the 4200 is a multiple disk wet clutch. Similar to the clutch in a motorcyle. The design of this clutch results in there always being some friction between the plates even when disengaged. Excess oil on the plates makes it worse due to the viscosity of the oil. That is why the dealers are recommending draining the oil to the low end of the range. I have a 4200 also. It exhibits the same behavior but as I get hours on the machine it is getting better. I really think both the clutch and tranny need to break in. Being that the clutch is oil cooled there is very little wear. I hate to be too critical of the design though because I think this type of clutch is much better than the normal single plate dry clutch but it is a pain sometimes. I have found that not having your foot on the brakes when shifting into gear helps but is hard to do on a hill. Randy ....

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Matt
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2001-04-03          26265

Well the picture in the sales brochure is all that I have seen of the clutch and it looks like a muti disc motorcycle type clutch but wasn't certain based on a picture. Today it's a little warmer here in Indiana, so I got the tractor out to see what it would do today. It was better if I let it sit for a few seconds longer than I would normally and try to put it into gear on flat ground. Once in gear while still holding the clutch down I could pretty easily switch to any gear. I then proceded to the HILL. Going down it still had the same problem but if I had it in first going down and just stopped with the clutch in and kind of slammed it into reverse it went in easier. I turned around then and pointed uphill and it was easier and almost the same as flat ground. I called my dealer today and he said bring it in but I think I'll wait and see how it does under normal use for a while. I still have about a year and four months left under warranty. I'm still sure it's the clutch, but not sure why it behaves as it does. Randy, how many hours did you have on yours before it loosened up? How old is the tractor? Thanks to all!!! ....

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TomG
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2001-04-04          26296

I do wonder what's going on. I remember the slight clunk on my motorcycle when standing and putting it in gear, but there was no question of it going into gear. I also remember rebuilding the TX on my old Econoline. Just to see that things were working, I turned the input shaft by hand and pulled the shift levers to go through the gears. Again, there was no question of it going into gear, even without leverage from the linkage. I know these are apples and oranges comparisons, but I keep thinking that the synchronizers should be handling any sort of normal clutch drag. Why going downhill? I suppose load and weight shift could change some geometry, but it just doesn't seem this should be happening. Perhaps the explanation is that the TX has to be broken in rather than the clutch. Maybe the new synchronizers are dragging. I can't recall if what I'll call 'tickling the clutch' while in neutral was tried--at least that's what works for sliding gears. I think it's good the dealer is going to take this on. I do recall early in the discussion mention that something in the linkage may have gotten bent. Hope that's not the explanation. However, even then there's the question of why an owner should be in the position of bending something that should work easily. Well, easy to say I guess, but the former owner of my 1710 did manage to bend the 4wd linkage, which eventually failed inside the cases on me. ....

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Randy Eckard
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2001-04-04          26303

Matt,
My 4200 has about 60 hours on it and it has gotten much better in the last 20. But for a tractor these are really no hours at all and I wouldn't consider it broken it for at least another 100. I have tried letting out the clutch in nuetral and even letting out the clutch slightly while trying to push it in gear and nothing helped. As far as the tractor pointing downhill, the oil would be draining into the clutch housing from the transmission and wetting them even more. I think that is why the problem worsens. Randy ....

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mark m
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2001-04-07          26426

Try greasing the shift linkage--it worked for me, makes it alot easier to shift
....

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Matt
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2001-04-09          26534

Just a little follow up. I went to my dealer last week. He has a 4200 just like mine with 26 hrs on it that is a trade in. So I tried it out on a fairly steep hill on the grounds there. It was very similar to mine with the exception that the shifter was just hard to move all the time. I think it definately needed grease. As far as going down the hill it was also hard to get into reverse when I stopped. The best way I've found to get it in is to have it in first and stop and then kind of slam it back into reverse. It's not a real hard slam, but speed is important it seems, but not so much the effort. I told him I'm going to use if for a while longer and see how it does. He said they are going to contact John Deere and tell them that there is a problem with them anyway. I'll keep you posted if anything else comes up on the problem. Thanks to all! ....

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