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Power Steering Failure

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WH_Bob
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2000-12-13          22409

I have a John Deere 4100 hydro with 410 loader, R4 tires, and 39 hours. When I try to attach an implement to the 3ph by myself, I find that I constantly get on and off the tractor, turning the steering to adjust the lift arms. (Run at 2600rpms, 2WD). The real problem is the front wheels will not turn the last 15-20 degrees. It makes attaching an implement nearly-impossible. My dealer has replaced fluid and pumps. Took loader off and problem was diminished! Any suggestions? Stumped in N.C.

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Larry in MI.
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2000-12-13          22411

WH Bob I have the same setup except I have turf tires. My 4100 does the same thing. I think it is probably because the loader adds a lot of weight to the front wheels without any 3 pt. ballast. The power steering pump probably just doesn't have enough power to turn the front wheels with that much weight on them. It steers fine when you are moving but when you are sitting still without any ballast on the 3 pt. the steering does not work. ....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-13          22418

It sounds like the shop may want to buy a combination hydraulic pressure and flow test kit. Lots of shops have one. It sure is handy to be able to measure both pressure and flow volume. The gauge set is plugged in series with the fluid line to the power steering motor and readings are taken as the steering wheel is turned. Most mechanics can take it from there.
Lets see, the 4100 has a dual open center pump....one pump for the power steering and another for everthing else. It really doesn't matter that the steering pump has very low flow capacity, because if it has any flow at all it should be able to turn those wheels. This is a 2500 psi system. it has plenty of power to turn those wheels. Hmmm....OK...I've got it figured out. It is a cheap and easy test for you or for them to do:
Mount a 3000 PSI gauge via a T in the high pressure line going from the dual hydraulic pump to the power steering box. They can put this together for $25 bucks in less than an hour plus a trip to the hardware store. Now record what pressures that the system develops when you turn the steering wheel just a little and the front wheels are responding well. Now continue turning the steering wheel until you get to the place where the front wheels no longer respond. What is the pressure doing now? Only 3 things are possible:
If the pressure remains constant or rises only slightly but the tire stops moving, then something is stealing the flow. Or to put it another way, that pressure is creating a flow going somewhere that it shouldn't. So that instead of staying there and doing work inside the power steering box the flow is being wasted. Suspect either the relief valve circuit, or excessive clearance in the power steering box, or a hydraulic pump with excessive clearance. The pump is easy to test by dead-heading the output and seeing if the gauge rises.
If the pressure rises as much as several hundred psi and the tires still don't move, then the pump and the relief circuit are fine. It has sufficient pressure rise and should be turning the tires. The problem is either that the power steering box is binding at large turn angles (defective power steering box), or the steering linkage between the steering box and the front wheels is binding.....or that the power steering box itself (or steering geometry) is improperly designed. Try replacing the power steering box. If that doesn't do it then I'm afraid this may take a design engineer's attention.
The remaining option is that when the tires stop moving then the pressure actually drops. Hope for this one, because it is simple. It would be too much internal clearance in the power steering box. Replace the PS box.
There you go WH BOB! Hope these suggestions help. Chances are that the answer is above. Your mechanic may want contact me with questions....that's OK, but I will need a 4100 shop manual or hydraulic diagram to be more specific. The advice above is based on how these circuits work in general...and specifically the fact that the 4100 uses a dual open center pump rather than a single open center pump and diverter valve setup.
....

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TomG
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2000-12-14          22422

I'll add a couple observations rather than suggest a fix. I don't believe there's not much left to add to what Roger said. Please ignore some of these comments if you’re an experienced tractor user. I'm summarizing some of my early experience (last year it was), which might be useful to some readers. First: the steering column on my Ford 1710 was loose when I bought it used. The steering was hard and had to be muscled if there was much weight in the loader. I had the tractor into the dealer mostly for a 4wd problem and asked them to tighten the steering column (not easy, the dash has to be removed). The steering now works like it should, and the explanation probably is one of Roger's possibilities. The dealer also replaced a dented steering stabilizer (a tube shock absorber mounted horizontally in the steering linkage). A dented stabilizer can bind the steering, but it was unlikely the source of the hard steering. I suppose the steering column got that way from the former owner hanging on to it while getting on and off the tractor. That's what a handle on the fender is for. It's good habit to get into the habit of using the handle, and also getting off the same way you get on. A lot of sprained ankles happen from people hopping off front-first and landing in a hole or on a rock. As an incidental to my hard steering, I learned to lift the front wheels with the loader so I could turn the wheels easily when I needed to maneuver. That's not a fix, but it did get me out of some holes. Second: I don't think I've ever had to maneuver as described to change implements, and I did have most of my equipment in a fairly small brushed out area this summer. Changing implements is a subject that regularly comes up here. The archives have some good information. Myself, I don't know what I'd do without my heavy pry-bar and wood blocks. I find it easier to maneuver implements by levering them around with the pry-bar than to maneuver the tractor. I never knew what use I was going to make of the pry-bar when I bought it over 20 years ago to split rocks out of postholes--it still works for that too, but I’d rather not. ....

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Randy Eckard
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2000-12-14          22427

Just one note of clarification, the 4100 hydro does not have a separate powersteering pump. It gets its flow from the Hydro tranny the same way the 55 series did. Whether this makes any difference or not I dont know.
Randy ....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-14          22431

Thank you Randy. Yes, it does make a difference. But are you sure? As I say above, I do not have complete information on this model; what I do have (from JD in 1999) shows both the hydro and the gear systems with the dual pump. Anyway, the difference would be that such a system as you describe would have all the same elements as the one I described above, with the tranny pump taking the place of the power steering pump. If it drives OK under heavy load (like pushing the loader through dirt) then it is unlikely to be the hydro pump. There is always one additional component when a system that does not have a separate power steering pump and that is a diverter valve to provide preferential flow to the steering. Diverter valves are usually set so that no fluid goes anywhere else until the power steering is satisfied. All the possibilities I set out before are still valid, with these additions: If the pressure goes low (unlikely), look at the regenerative triggering circuit for the diverter valve. If the pressure does not change much you have a very strong indication that the diverter valve's internal settings might be wrong. If I were betting, I would bet on that one. Setting that valve itself is much easier with a test kit that looks at both flow and pressure. If the pressure goes high then the diverter is probably OK.
....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2000-12-14          22438

There are 2 pumps used on the 4100 one for steering and one for implements. When playing with the compact tractors there are many that have trouble turning the front wheels with loaders on, more so with a load in the bucket. Tom with your response I wonder if the column didn't get loose from the hard steering? ....

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dave piper
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2000-12-14          22445

TomG. Do yourself a favor by taking that steering dampener off your 1710. I damaged mine and found the steering quite a bit lighter without it. You should put some longer stop bolts on the hubs to prevent the wheels from turning too far. Dave. ....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-14          22455

Art, that hasn't been my experience with compacts, though I haven't played as much with the 4000 series JDs as I have some of the other makes. But I don't recall any of the compact tractors having a feeble-feeling power steering. Then again, I wasn't looking for it. I didn't try full buckets on everything, but the ones that they let me dig in the dirt with didn't seem to care if the bucket was loaded or not.
Power steering has been completely worked out for half a century. Cheap, strong, and darn near bulletproof. I can't believe that I've missed something like this! Anyone else have this problem? ....

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TomG
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2000-12-15          22464

Dave: Thanks for the note. I know the early 1710's didn't have steering dampers, so they will work without them. I do drive the tractor infrequently on a major 2-lane highway about 10 miles to our camp. I suspect the damper may improve steering at road speeds, but I'm open to ideas. The steering is lighter after the repairs, so if I get better steering on the highway, I'd want to leave the damper on. I may put a rear view mirror on the tractor so I don’t have to spend so much time looking over my shoulder watching for transports over-taking me. Yes, the stops allow the wheels to turn almost perpendicular to the tractor. It's pretty extreme, and I have even wondered if the stop bolts were missing. I'm managing with better operating technique, but I think longer bolts are in my future. ....

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WH_Bob
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2000-12-15          22472

The power-steering failure is happening when the bucket is empty. The dealer is acquiring a pressure valve to test system pressure since the transmission, steering, and lift use one resevoir. I can't beleive that this is a normal behavior since it makes it nearly impossible to mount a three point hitch attachment since you can not make fine adjustments in the tractor position.
If this is accepted behavior by Deere, I would suggest that potential customers stay away from this model! ....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-15          22476

Bob, that's not right. Your steering should be better than that. But congratulations on having the kind of dealer who is willing to go after the problem. Yes, the system pressure gauge will work just fine if you want do do the low/unchanged/high pressure diagnosis that I refer to in messages 22418 and 224310 above - although when dealing with the total system it is necessary to know whether we are measuring before or after the diverter valve (some call this a "priority valve" - it is the same thing).
Good luck! And I'd be curious to know the results. ....

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Art White
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2000-12-15          22477

Roger thats one of the fun things of being able to be on as many tractors as we do. This could be fun for you, next time you get a chance take a full bucket on a hard surface and raise it three or four feet into the air start with the wheels straight and at a lower rpm and see how far the wheels turn. Than see how well it does with the bucket empty. Try it at different rpm's and again see the results. When a individual has to be on a tractor all day doing loader work that is when it does make a difference. For what I do with them I think most all of them are good but there are differences and after working or fighting with something for a full day I think we all could see the differences. ....

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dave piper
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2000-12-15          22488

Tom G. I also have to drive about 4 miles on asphalt roads to take care of friends horse manure pile. I have found no difference in the steering with the dampener off. Dave. ....

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TomG
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2000-12-16          22509

Dave: It's good to hear your experience with the damper. As I noted, the steering is much improved after the work. However, if I find I'm still struggling with it, I'll try removing the damper. I wish my roading was only on asphalt. Most of the time I'm on gravel shoulders that can be eroded, narrow and have 50' drop-offs. There is a lot of transport traffic that I have to avoid, and steering while on the shoulders can require some concentration. ....

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TomG
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2000-12-16          22510

Roger: Your comments are, as usual, well taken. I'll add a note about terminology, which is sometimes a pain. I am writing, I hope, for the benefit of others who may be recent tractor owners who find themselves overwhelmed by terminology. You obviously know this stuff, and I imagine will tell me if I get it wrong.

What I call the diverter valve is on the hydraulic manifold block, and its function is to select flow between remote and aux hydraulic systems. Since I already call something a diverter valve, I use the term 'priority valve' to refer to the valve that supplies pressure to the power steering. I probably don't need to further illustrate the pain of terminology, but never-the-less, I'll observe that the priority valve diverts oil from the high pressure line to the power steering. As such, the function of the priority valve may give it better claim to being called a diverter valve, than the diverter valve, which perhaps could be better called a selector valve. Painful, yes? On the other hand, the priority valve maybe is a good name since it's function is to maintain flow to the power steering at the expense of high-pressure line flow. So, power steering gets priority, and in a collapsing hydraulic system, the steering will be the last function to go. I heard the term 'priority valve' not long after I got my tractor. I concluded that it was some sort of central hydraulic brain that sensed demand and decided what get fed and when. I spent some time trying to come to grips with hydraulics while labouring under some serious misconceptions. Now I wonder what other misconceptions I have that I don't know about.
....

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Roger L.
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2000-12-16          22515

Tom, what you are saying is exactly correct. Thanks for taking the time. Terminology is always a big part of any technical subject and after a lifetime of fighting with it, i still haven't come up with any alternatives. Hydraulics is a special problem because there aren't many good or well-known books on the subject and even technical books don't have complete agreement on the right words to use. Diverter vs priority vs pressure selective valve being one such case. Sort of like being a mechanic and trying to figure out what to call the differential housing, third member?, or rear end?, or pumpkin?...etc. In fact, I think I caused part of the hydraulic terminology problem a week or so ago when someone refered to one valve as the other and since I knew what he had meant to say I just let it slide....oops..not realizing how confusing that would be for someone following along. ....

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TomG
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2000-12-17          22541

The good thing about this terminology stuff is that it only has to be dealt with once. Then, a person can go on to concentrate on how things work rather than how they're called. The bad thing is that, until it's dealt with, terminology often gets in the way of understanding. I still haven't quite got myself clear of terminology muddles, but I'm working on it. The really fortunate thing is that once I've got it figured out, things are usually much more simple than I originally thought. For example, I think I can stop searching for a mysterious power beyond part that performs magical functions. Near as I can figure, the only reason not to call a power beyond port 'outlet,' is to distinguish it from the other outlets that don't carry the open centre flow. I hope nobody complicates my now simplified life by telling me that I haven't got this one right. ....

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Bird Senter
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2000-12-17          22544

TomG, I think you've about got it right. My FEL valve has in "inlet" or as they call it "pump" port labelled "P", then it has the "power beyond" port labelled "PB" that sends the oil back into the circuit, through the open center valve, to continue on to the 3-point hitch. It also has an "outlet" or as they call it "tank" port labelled "T" that allows the oil to flow back to the reservoir when the valve is operated. ....

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TomG
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2000-12-18          22559

Bird: Thanks for the note. I think that the pieces of this hydraulics stuff are falling together pretty well for me. With great restraint on my part, I'll stop commenting on hydraulics terminology. There will be future discussions on hydraulics, and I'll get a chance to see if I've gotten all the pieces together. I imagine that I will eventually be able to spend less time studying on it and more time doing it. In the meantime, I hope I've gotten to the point where some of my comments help people who are even more novice than I. ....

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WH_Bob
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2000-12-22          22713

I got my 4100 back from the local dealer yesterday. They inserted a shim under the spring that is part of the valve that controls the pressure to the power-steering system. They had replaced ps and 3ph pumps-no help. A pressure check indicated that the ps pressure near or below 1000psi - low range according to JD. They said that the shim boosted pressure up to 1300 psi. I tried the tractor out at the dealer and this seems to have gone a long way toward solving the problem. I would suggest that anyone owning a JD4100, test for this problem and if it occurs, have it looked at while under warrantee. ....

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