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Terry Weivoda
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2000-06-28          17508

I wonder if the post by J.Dubbs regarding his decision on a compact tractor would ever make it to Deere officials both at Augusta Works where the 4000 tractors are built or at their headquarters in Moline, IL. Mr. Dubbs says he eliminated the JD 4000 tractor from his choice essentially due to the MFWD axle problems that have been discussed on this board for nearly a year and a half. It would be interesting to know whether "any heads rolled" at Augusta with the axle mess. I suspect not. While the 4000 tractors continue to sell it would be interesting to know how many Kubotas, Cub Cadets and Boomers have been sold just due to the bad publicity surrounding the axle problem. In my opinion of Deere had just accepted the responsibility immediately, (a year and half ago) and replaced the axles without making the customers complain, beg, cry that this would have been forgotten by now. Customers like me would be on this board telling potential compact tractor buyers that Deere's warranty program is the best in the business and that you need to look beyond just the price. Instead, I am still waiting for the new axle on my 4600 and I get more irritated with Deere each time I mow with the tractor and rip up the turf.

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Kelly Wright
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2000-06-28          17525

I just bought a new Boomer, after seriously considering the Kubota. I did *not* seriously consider the JD 4100, though I did briefly stop and look one over on the dealer's lot.

Please understand... I have no brand loyalty in this arena as this is my first compact tractor, I have no axe to grind for any reason, and though I live in JD country, have no personal experience with or know anyone with any of the major brands of compacts.

However, after reading so much negative press regarding the JD 4000 series line I simply didn't want to take the chance or have the potential hassle of front axle problems or other apparent issues. My free time *is* important to me though, and I'm not tolerant or patient with messing around with warranty work or running back and forth to a dealer.

Since I live in JD country and see them all over, I certainly would have been inclined to look more closely at a 4100 if it wasn't for the negative material I've seen on several sites.

My money is green (no pun intended) and will be accepted anywhere. Therefore, after looking at the two other major brands, carefully reviewing the chatter on the various boards, and based on my own perceptions, I made my own calculated decision.

....

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droz
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2000-06-28          17526

I have a John Deere 4100 and was going to get a 4600 in addition but they gave me such a run-around with the axle (which I tested) that I bought a Kubota instead. I doubt that John Deere cares much. ....

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Scott S.
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2000-06-28          17527

I agree that there seems to be problems with Deere and public relations.
I bought a 4100 last fall and although I'm perfectly happy with it, I've
got to say that the dealer left MUCH to be desired. It seems as if they
could not have cared less whether I bought from them or not. Very cavalier
attitude, sort of "Hey, you want the tractor, fine. You don't want it, fine."
If doing it all over again, I'd take a more serious look at Kubota and NH. ....

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droz
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2000-06-28          17534

Actually, my dealer was and has been exceptional. Fortunately, they sell Kubota and John Deere and steered me towards Kubota since John Deere was so unresponsive and they have had fewer problems with the Kubotas. ....

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Jim Youtz
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2000-06-28          17544

Just reading these posts and thought I would jump in. I have a JD4100 and it doesn't scuff at all. All in all a great unit with no problems-I think one of the best in its HP class. As I read the posts which discuss problems with their 4000 series tractors, I notice that they do not mention the 4100, just the 4200 + models. Interesting, the 4100 is entirely made and engineered in Japan, while the 4200+ models are jointly made and assembled in Japan and Georgia. Pretty sad that this is the case, but it appears that the US plant and engineers must be the problem. ....

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Frank R Taylor
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2000-06-29          17562

I'm with DROZ, I don't think Deere cares all that much. They seem to be happy with their share of the compact market and I don't know how much of their overall sales that the compact market accounts for. Competition is building though and I hope their attitude doesn't mean that they lose out on the sector all together. I'm another one who bought orange last year after reading on this and other boards about mechanical difficulties in the 4000 line. The dealer attitude and long lead times also contributed to my decision. I have never regretted it and although I still have an old JD 820 and the dealership has changed hands, I doubt if I will return to green in the future. Kubota's machinery is excellent and the dealer very good although I wish we had a Boomer dealer close. I'd love to check out one of those. ....

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Ken Butner
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2000-06-30          17585

I would like to take this opportunity to vent some frustrations with my 4300 and experiences with the dealership. I purchased my tractor in November of 1999 from Harnett Tractor in Dunn, NC. I currently have 240 hours on the tractor and of that about 40 hours on the backhoe. Upon delivery of my tractor, I used it for five minutes before noticing the 4 in 1 bucket hydraulics were not functioning properly. The dealership picked up the tractor and returned it in a couple of days. Later on, I realized the dealership had connected the backhoe hydraulics incorrectly. The backhoe was connected inline with the rockshaft input port, meaning the rockshaft would function WITH the backhoe attached. The return of the backhoe was supposed to be connected to the return to reservoir port and the rockshaft input port is to be left unconnected. I corrected this problem at a cost to me of $26 for a coupling. Then the fuel gauge stopped working. The rod that connects the float to the sensor broke at the spot weld. For the sake of not having to go through the dealership, I repaired this myself at a cost of $40 for a new fuel gauge sending unit. After using the tractor for the last several months, the problems began to accumulate. I carried the tractor to the dealership on 6/20/2000 with the following repair list. An engine oil leak around the injector pump. The rockshaft arms tend to have a surging cycle when the tractor is idling, as if its having trouble maintaining the raised position. The backhoe bucket curl cylinder sprays hydraulic fluid under a heavy digging load (its not the fitting, its the cylinder). The backhoe boom right/left cylinders and or fittings leak hydraulic fluid constantly. The backhoe left side frame mount plate has one bolt that has loosened and backed out approx half an inch. The loader intermittently looses power and can barely raise itself off the ground(yes I recoupled the couplings numerous times-not the problem). The loader also holds its raised position for only a few minutes before it begins to sink downward with the engine either running or off. I have called the service manager several times this week and got the following responses. All the problems were supposedly easy to fix except the loader issues. The problem with the loader intermittently lacking raise power had them "baffled" and then they were "confused" per the service manager. John Deere has been providing them with "THINGS TO TRY" all week, but none of those solutions "TOTALLY" fixed the problem. The service manager told me that he was going to replace the entire SVC. I was "semi" promised the tractor today 6/30 or maybe 7/1, but now that has been pushed out to 7/3-late afternoon("we'll try our best") due to the SVC not arriving and was "back ordered". Would I buy green again? I just dunno....... BTW, I do have the scuffing axle problem. That will be my next chore. I will keep you updated. -Thanks! ....

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bob komarek
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2000-07-02          17623

I looked intently at all of the compact tractors. The 4100 series was tempting, but i had heard about the axel problem and finally settled on the 790 model. A great tractor and I have never looked back!

Bob ....

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Mike S.
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2000-07-02          17634

Bob--a small clarification--the JD4100 did not have the turf-tearing front axle since it was manufactured by Yanmar in Japan. The JD4200+ compact diesel tractors had the poorly-engineered front ends. With as many problems as my 4400HST has had and knowing that it was manufactured in Georgia by JD, I would prefer that Yanmar had manufactured it in Japan and am confident that it would not have had so many problems, if any. At least it has a Yanmar engine of which I can be confident;-) Mike S. ....

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droz
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2000-07-02          17635

I have a 4100 and, no it doesn't have the turf tearing problems. However, I would not necessarily say that the other axles were "poorly engineered". I am an engineer and things are designed for different purposes. As I understand it, Deere made this axle the way they did for strength and didn't really expect people to be cutting their lawn with the larger ones. BUT, it would be nice if they explained that to someone somewhere, like at a site or a forum, so people understood and didn't think they were just being ignored. I know they think they should only deal with their customers through the dealers and probably don't want to get involved in a battle but this is the new millenium and maybe it is time to start since people expect it nowadays. Think how happy we all would have been on this forum of someone from John Deere came on to explain what was going on. Everyone would have been impressed at their concern and bought green. ....

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Chuck Westerfield
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2000-07-02          17636

in reply to the last post, I have just replaced the front end and it is heavier than the old type. The pump says 100 instead of 80 and same on the control valve. It works excellent and can manuver the load under full weight. My dealer really took care of me. Since Deere's venture into the compact utility they seem to be trying to update. I bought the service manual, parts manual and it really helps with adjustments. ....

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Mike S.
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2000-07-02          17639

Droz--I respectfully disagree about the engineering of the poorly-designed front axles of the JD4200+ compact diesel tractors, even though you are an engineer and I am not. IF JD had not meant for these tractors to be used with a belly mower, then JD should not have advertised that they had such a short turning radius making them sound like wonderful mowing machines. The replacement axle works fine which also illustrates that JD could have engineered an axle that worked. I do agree that JD could have and should have entered into the lengthy turf-tearing thread on this board, but they still don't recognize that the Internet will play an important role in future sales of their products and they still rely on their dealers. YET, I have seen a number of postings on this board in which it was indicated that some dealers were unaware of the turf-tearing issue--therefore, relying upon the dealers doesn't appear to be working either. Due to my dissatisfaction with the number of problems with my 4400HST due to poor engineering and/or poor quality control, I contacted the executive that is in charge of compact diesel tractors and mailed him a polite letter explaining how dissatisfied I was with their product that I had purchased. The JD executive's response was a friendly phonecall from their communication center. Thank goodness that I have a very supportive dealer that has made the necessary warranty repairs and the tractor appears to be correctly working after one year. Due to the significant amount of warranty repairs necessary (transmission replaced, PTO rebuilt, new brakes, new front end and some minor issues)AND the lack of confidence I have in the tractor now AND the year in which I never knew when something else was going to go wrong--I tried, through my dealer, to get JD to provide me a new tractor (not FEL or mower or extra SCVs) and I would even kick in some money to help my dealer. Of course this was turned down because JD preferred to spend between $8000 and $9000 in warranty work on my tractor. My tractor now appears to work fine and currently (FINALLY) is a joy to use--yet I still don't have much confidence based upon its past history and only time will tell. In case anyone is wondering if I abuse my 4400HST--NO, it is used to take care of my three acres and I take better care of it than our family cars, much to my wife's chagrin! I know that when I purchase a car and it has lots of serious warranty issues, I will trade it off ASAP. Does JD really care about us individuals--I am not sure and I admit that my attitude is influenced by a year's worth of poor experience with my tractor. (I must add to this whine that during a ten year ownership of a Kubota B8200HST that it NEVER went back to the dealer and its total repair bill was $ 9.95 for a tachometer cable that broke.) Mike S. ....

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Mike S.
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2000-07-02          17640

As an addendum to my previous post: "Is JD getting the message?" I suspect that JD's response would be: "WHAT MESSAGE?????" ....

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droz
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2000-07-02          17643

Mike S.

My only response about the engineers to to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they didn't intentionally design a poor axle (did anyone ever test this tractor?). But since John Deere doesn't give any explanation, we don't have any idea. It sure seems to have been a bad job. Remember, after my 4100, I bought a Kubota rather than a 4600 which I considered. They lost my business. My dealer has also been excellent but why does he need to be? Like you said, did John Deere really save money by spending thousands on repairs?

Chuck,
I had heard the old axle was structurally stronger but that is where rumor gets one. Like I said, it would be nice if we had information from John Deere instead of guessing. ....

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Mike
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2000-07-04          17688

Droz,Mike S, It was my understanding that the Dana Corp designed and built the front axles for the 4000 series,at least the models assembled in Ga.This is just another outside "jobber" providing componants for Deere.These tractors are assembled with parts shipped in from around the world.No differant than the auto industry.Everything is driven by cost and profit.This is the main reason I've bought Kubota over the years,all components for their line of tractors are built "in house",by Kubota and assembled by Kubota.I think this gives them an edge when it comes to dependability,and over all quality control.I'd like to see some stats on the re-call of differant models of autos built by the Big-3.I would bet that the biggest reason for any re-call is due to faulty parts provided by an outside "jobber". ....

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JerryGoucher
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2000-07-04          17689

Mike, I had rather have parts made by out side suppliers. The reason is, if a tolerance is just off by say 3 or 4 thousandths, the in house guys are more than likly to say well we will use it. It won't hurt any thing and if I don't use it, I will stop production and I could get fired or written up. On the other hand, If it is from an out side supplier, then the specs. are checked when they come in the door. If they are out of tolerance, then they will be sent back to the manufacture. If it continues to happen, then the contract will be terminated and an other supplier will be procured. JerryG ....

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Roger L.
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2000-07-04          17690

Mike, about Kubota making all their parts in house...are you sure about that? It is my understanding that the Japanese have refined their outsourcing from sub-assembly suppliers because they do so much of it.
I know that in the US that sometimes a company will have a "partnership" agreement with another company. And that this leads to increased pressure on everyone to accept the partner's designs and specs without as much critical inspection. Maybe that is what happened to JD. Maybe they trusted Dana's expertise....Dana didn't have much experience building 4wd setups for front ends of mowing tractors, or maybe they gave the project to someone who was not as good technically (they certainly missed a simple technical concept), and then JD fell down by not giving themselves sufficient time to evaluate the axles.
I don't think that this means that there is anything wrong with the outsourcing process; it does fail sometimes. One hopes that somewhere down the line that someone picks up the slack. In this case there seems to be a chain of failures...the axle design, JDs denials, some dealer attitude, and JD not supporting the dealers with a realistic labor allowance for the swap, and then a coverup so complete that JD still won't admit to a problem on one hand while dispensing multi-thousand dollar axles with the other. Taken all together, it sounds like a top-level policy decision to me.
What is disappointing is that after engineering an excellent fix, and then spending what must be a huge amount to implement it, JD decided to save an additional small percentage by being petty. And by doing so they gave their competition free ammunition and lost all of the positive advertising that they could have had so easily. Roger L.

....

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Mike
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2000-07-04          17702

Jerry and Roger,Points very well taken.I guess I'm just too much from the old school,I call on a fabricating plant that stamps out tractor frames for John Deere,these frames are for the larger ag tractors.The presses that make these frames are huge,they were dis-assembled from a Deere plant in Ill. and shipped and set-up in a small plant in N.W. Mo.The cost of this change over had to be massive.But in the long run Deere makes money by laying off there own employees and depending on another influence to produce a quality product.And I'm sure that Kubota doesn't make every component that goes into one of there tractors,but I would bet they still make there own engines,hydraulics,transmissions,front axles,and many others.I helped our dealer install the loader on our B2710 last summer on a Sat. afternoon.We had to press the loader frame onto the tractor frame rails,the tolerances were right at the point that the loader frame sheared the paint off the tractor frame.The loader was built in Kubotas U.S. plant,so I guess you can mfg. components in differant locations and still come up with a good product.


....

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Ken
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2000-07-04          17706

Guys- I think Dana is JD owned.KenW ....

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Mike
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2000-07-05          17743

Ken,I don't know who owns the Dana Corp.but I do know that they they also mfg. the front and rear axles for the Jeep Grand Cherokee.We owned a 99' model and was having problems with noise and vibration in the front axle and a "wine" in the rear-end at a certain speed.I learned of Dana making the axles for Jeep on this forum this past winter.When we took the Jeep to the dealership to have these problems checked out,of course the service manager had not a clue as to what the problems were and had'nt heard anything at all about the Dana Corp. making these axles for Jeep.For you'all with the 4000 Deeres,does this line sound familiar?anyway I pulled the page out that I had printed from this forum and showed him in black and white what I was talking about.The post also stated that Dana had lost out on a huge bid for building the axles for The New Generation Dodge Pickups,because of the problems with the Jeep axles.Well,needless to say,the service manager would get right on it,and come up with a solution.We traded the Jeep this spring for a Chevy Tahoe,I'm sure we've owned our last Jeep product,the 99 was our 3rd Cherokee. ....

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Chuck Westerfield
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2000-07-05          17747

I've been reporting to the axle post for sometime. You know Deere has always progressively upgraded and improved products through all its product lines. With consumerism and the higher cost of products the stakes are a lot higher. I don't think these mistakes are limited to anyone product manufacturer. JD sent me the new axle and it is refined for performance. ....

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Jim Youtz
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2000-07-06          17757

Mike, Sorry to burst your bubble -BUT if you think that you had axle problems with the Jeep, wait until you get some use on your Chevy. I work for a federal land management agency, and we have a fleet of about 75 4wd trucks at my location, which we use daily in rough field conditions. EVERY CHEVY has been into the shop to have front ball joints, axles, CV joints, drivelines, and tie rods replaced. True enough we do use them rougher than the average user, BUT our Fords and Dodges do not have these problems. By the way, we also have a few Jeeps and these do not give us any problems either. ....

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Mike
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2000-07-06          17792

Chuck and Jim,No bubbles burst here,I'm not trying to get into a brand name war here,I know there is good and bad in product lines,and yes I'm sure that Deere/Dana and Jeep/Dana will resolve all their problems soon.I guess my biggest problem is the aggravation of spending $35,000-40,000 for a new vehicle that I have trouble with,and then to have a dealership tell me they just don't understand what could be wrong.I don't have time or the patience to take something to a shop every other week to have something repaired that should not be a problem to begin with.I don't think this is much different than spending $10,000-30,000 for a compact tractor and having problems with it also. ....

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Chuck Westerfield
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2000-07-06          17793

Mike: no pun intended but did Chevrolet make the perfect V8 the first year...got it perfected around 57. Did Winchester make the perfect lever action rifle, got it right around 1894. Now I agree that who is making something should make it perfectly right the first time, whether its the government or industry but it never happens and everyone knows that. When you buy into technology there is always an evolution. ....

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J. Dubbs
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2000-07-07          17809

Mike, owned a Ford 88 Bronco and 1999 Ford Expedition, both in the shop more than out, owned Jeep Wrangler, piece of junk, presently own Chevrolet Tahoe, best vehichle I ever drove. Go Chevy. ....

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