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backblading snow

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corvetteguy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 49 PA
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2005-12-11          120830

Here in NE PA we had our 1'st snow. I attached my old backblade on the JM-180. Put my new double ring logging chains on and put it to work. As I have a stone driveway with small ups and downs the blade really wants to dig in to the stones as the tractor tilts to follow the bumps.

I welded two 2 inch black iron "T"s on the back of the blade and put my old myers plow shoes on. After a few weld breaks they stayed attached but now I get 2 to 3 inch snow left on the pass. I am pulling the blade, not pushing


Is there a better way to get closer to the stones without the feet pods?


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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2005-12-11          120834

it depends on the quality of your rear blade. Probably all blades angle, but better ones tilt as well and really good ones offset too. I unpin the tilt setting and the blade follows the ground no matter where the tractor tilts. Some tractors also have releases on the 3 point arms to allow some ground contour following, but it does not work as the blade tilt. I also use the blade in the opposite direction it was meant to go and it does not dig in. Some people also slit a pipe the length of the blade and slip it over the cutting edge. ....

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corvetteguy
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2005-12-11          120841

I like the idea of taking off the top link. I would think the blade would no longer dig in. I wonder if it would ride up the snow though. Also, would the blade lift work, and the blade go up with the 2 point. I'll give it a try next snow. ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-12-12          120888

Of course not. It will just pivot there on the lower lift arm balls. And if you try to over-extend the lift radius to get the blade off the ground, good chance you'll tear up the lift piston gasket and wiper.

A lot of that unwanted movement may be due to maladjusted lift stabilizers - the turnbuckle things that connect the upper and lower lift arms. They don't "float" well until you give them some length.

I never pull snow with a rear blade anyway, preferring to reverse the blade and push it. But the "float" factor is important regardless of the direction of force.

//greg// ....

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corvetteguy
Join Date: Mar 2005
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2005-12-12          120904

Greg;
I just gave it a try. I disconnected the
top link. The 2 inches of snow pulled
great. It seemed to sin down to the
stones without major digging in.
I have to re-attach the TL if I want to
back up to raise the blade tho.

My arms seem adjusted like it was for
the 4 ft brush hog with the arms adjusted
to the closest hole.
I have the adjust left right pins in
stationary holes so the blade has less
side movement.

I guess when I get more than 9 inches I will
have to put the TL on in order to take
the top part of the snow. Lets hope I don't
get that much snow at one time. ....

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greg_g
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2005-12-12          120908

Wrong stabilizers, you're talking vertical - I said horizontal; specifically the turnbuckle things between the LOWER and UPPER lift arms. If they're drawn up to short, you'll pull the blade off the ground every time the front tires hit a dip. If you can get the blade to float better, you can keep the toplink connected.

Disconnecting the toplink will also transfer its share of the shock load directly to the blade's link pin. The result is generally bent and/or egg-shaped index holes.

//greg// ....

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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2005-12-12          120918

It's a touch late now, but I bladed the driveway this year before winter hit so I wouldn't have so much unleveled spots for the rear blade snow removal. It's helped me, but I also have resigned myself to cleaning gravel out of the grass in spring. ....

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corvetteguy
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2005-12-12          120924

I have decided to make/get a
shackle extender to add to
the top link. Like a big bycicle
chain link. Or I can use a few
links of chain in series with the
top link.
This way the blade will float without
down pressure but I can lift the three
point when I need to back up.

Sound reasonable?
George ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-12-13          120951

Two things for the folks that use a Rear Blade for snow.

First, the now infamous Murphy Pipe™ works quite well on the cutting edge of a Rear Blade as well.

Secondly, for almost ANY 3pth implement, a short piece of chain can be substituted for the upper link. In fact with some implements, like a bush hog, it actually works better.

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2005-12-13          120953

I agree with Murf on the chain. I have seen some mowers come that way.

However be very careful with such when using a PTO shaft. I jammed the PTO on a tractor doing so when the cutter picked up higher than expected pushing the pto shaft into the PTO on the tractor bending a fork iside the transmission.

kt ....

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greg_g
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2005-12-13          120954

I never had much luck pushing a chain. I guess if you limited blading to pulling in forward gears only......

//greg// ....

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Murf
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2005-12-13          120960

KT, that was because the PTO shaft was too long, the same thing would have happened regardless of what you had for an upper link.

Greg, the uper link really doesn't have anything to do with pushing, only the two lower arms do that, and since there is nothing but gravity to hold it down, it really doesn't matter if there's even an upper link there at all.

Best of luck. ....

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Iowafun
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2005-12-13          120973

Greg, even if you push backwards and have a chain as the upper link, it'll still work as long as your blade is below the arms and the chain is above. So if you push with the blade below the arms, the blade will cause the top chain to go into tension. I like the idea and am tempted to give it a try. I let my blade float up and down now, but this will allow me to angle it even more to cut down on gravel movement. ....

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greg_g
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2005-12-13          120983

Just doesn't sound very efficient. Since the blade would roll over on it's back every time the tractor went forward - with no guarantee that it would right itself properly once moving again in reverse - it would seem necessary to lift the blade every time to avoid that. Wasted motion.

But hey - whatever it takes to move the snow. I use my box blade anyway.

//greg// ....

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Murf
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2005-12-13          120984

Greg, how would "the blade would roll over on it's back every time the tractor went forward..." ??

Do you mean without any top link at all?

Even without a toplink, the balde will not roll unless it bites in and sticks, and that can be prevented with shoes or a pipe on the cutting edge.

Best of luck. ....

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greg_g
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2005-12-13          120993

Geometry, friction, and gravity. I don't care to scrape snow in forward gears because of tire compaction. Matter of fact, I now don't even own a scraper blade, any snow gets moved with my box blade. But I'll try to tackle this from a scraper blade perspective anyway. In all cases, let's assume tractor hydraulics are set to "float", and that the "Murphy Pipe" is not in use.

Situation 1: blade mounted to scrape forward - no toplink - effectively a two point hitch. Drive tractor forward, blade edge snags, TWO point geometry pivots forward on lower pins, forcing unused third point towards tractor. Blade angles toward belly down.
Situation 2: blade mounted to scrape forward, chain toplink. Drive tractor forward, blade edge snags, same as #1 above because chains don't respond well to pushing. But you can go backward just fine, because that takes up the slack in the chain.
Situation 3: blade mounted to scrape backward, no toplink. Drive tractor backward, blade edge snags, TWO point geometry pivots rearward on lower pins, forcing unused third point away from tractor. Blade angles toward belly down again.
Situation 4: blade mounted to scrape backward, chain toplink. Drive tractor rearward, chain takes up slack and implement scrapes snow. Move tractor forward, chain goes slack allowing implement to pivot on lower lift balls, blade goes belly up.

Even though these are worst case scenarios, remember Murphy's Law.

//greg// ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2005-12-13          120995

Murf,

PTO shaft was not too long for the cutter on that tractor. It worked fine with top link attached. I was backing and backed cutter up a slope (about a 45 degree angle) while fighting vines in my face. The top link on the cutter almost hit the top link mount on the tractor itself. With the lift arms down as they were it allowed the cutter to rotate and push the pto shaft into the tractor. If I have even raised the lift it would have prevented such movement or at least limited it.

kt ....

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Murf
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2005-12-13          120996

Ahh, gotcha. Except it won't do that in practice.

In 1) the pull on the linkage will keep it almost perfectly flat, besides, for the top link point on the implement to move towards the tractor, the blade would have to lift up in the air. The 3pth will not drop below it's set point.

In 2)same as above.

In 3) correct, if the tractor side of the linkage lifts. If not tractor stops, suddenly.

In 4) no arguement, per se.

Overall though you have to remember the upper link doesn't affect the actions of the lower two arms, they will not lift more often or less whether the upper link is there or not, flexible or not. The lower arms are ALWAYS free to float up, and will never drop below the set point, regardless.

But you're right, a rear blade is a poor choice for snow removal in any case.

Best of luck. ....

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jarndt
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2005-12-14          121027

A poor choice it may be, but a rear blade is a much more cost effective solution (at a few hundred bucks vs. thousands) than a hydraulic front blade or a blower. Of course, I'm speaking from a homeowner's perspective, not commercial. Although, I have seen rear blades used commercially for snow removal.

Around here they use 6000 series Deeres equipped with a standard highway truck plow on the FEL and a large rear blade on the 3PH to clear the rural roads. The rear blade really only comes into play when they are cleaning up an intersection. That way the operator can go back and forth pushing snow in either direction. Granted, we usually don't get a whole lot of snow in this area. A couple feet a year a few inches at a time typically.

My blade seems to work just fine on gravel. I use the convex side pushing in reverse. That way, the cutting edge rolls right over the gravel without digging in. The snow does tend to pick up some gravel so I stop short of the lawn. When I need to stack a bigger pile, I reverse the blade to the concave side and raise it up a couple inches. It's certainly not ideal, but a little technique goes a long way. ....

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corvetteguy
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 49 PA
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2005-12-14          121029

Got the top link shackle from my
local New Holland dealer.
2 link plates 8 inches long with one
hole and one slotted hole.
1 extra top link pin.
5 Jesus pins.
for $5.
It looks like it will work for the
extension and floating.
I guess I will see. We are expecting 8"
starting today.

Question. I have the verticle lift arms
adjusted for the closest hole to the tractor
(lowest 2 point setting)
Is there any better operation moving it to a
further out hole (lift arms higher)?
I would thing that moving it out would make the
blade attack angle more pronounced causing it
to bite in more. Not good on gravel... ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-12-14          121030

You just identified another problem when an adjustable toplink is not used. For (low priced) rear blades, the primary adjustment for angle of attack IS the toplink. The lower link height adjustment is for the amount of "float" you want to have in the blade; the longer the vertical link, the more the float range.

Perhaps you can add/remove links from that lashup you bought (?)

//greg// ....

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corvetteguy
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2005-12-14          121068

Greg;
You've got a lot of good information.
The link that I got from the NH dealer
will extend my top link by about 6".
I am hoping that it will allow the blade
to rotate lower by a few inches when I am
going down the one small driveway hill.

As I lift the three point I would expect that
the shackle will act as if the top link were
a few inches longer. But I am hoping it will
lift the blade off the ground.

You mentioned that you use a box blade.
How do you shed the snow that builds up?
George
....

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greg_g
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2005-12-14          121069

I start by using the box blade like a bulldozer, pushing snow in reverse. Plain old brute force. I reverse till snow starts to topple into the box (it gets maybe 3-4' high by that time), then angle to one side to deposit it on the roadside (below grade if possible). Once the majority of it's out of the way bulldozing in reverse, I then use forward gears to tidy up - to scrape up the last of it conventional boxblade style. When the box is full, I lift it while still moving forward. When there are enough small piles to make a big one, I start bulldozing in reverse again. Shuttle shift makes it easier than it sounds.

//greg// ....

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corvetteguy
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2005-12-14          121074

Yes, having to wait for the tractor
to stop before changing geers is a
hassle, and square teeth fight you
all the way.

You can change the angle of the blade
on the fly? Using hydraulics?
George ....

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greg_g
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2005-12-14          121089

If you're asking whether I do that, no. But a hydraulic toplink IS actually on my shopping list for 2006. At the moment I get by with the good old fashioned threaded style; dismount and adjust by hand.

//greg// ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-15          121102

I don't fight snow, but use a hydraulic top link some with a scrape blade and some other implements. It is not very precise on the adjustment and the cylinder will give some also or drift or whatever.

The threaded toplink is more precise and stays put (normally, some require a lock to be thingten) while being used. The hydraulic top link does have it's place. The best place I have found is on a scope.

....

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greg_g
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2005-12-15          121116

I hope this won't divert the topic from the subject of scraping snow, but I'm guessing your HTL isn't equipped with pilot check valves. Settem and forgettem.

//greg// ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-15          121127

Greg,

I think you are correct. I think mine depends totally on the tractor valve. ....

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Murf
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2005-12-15          121131

It doesn't matter what or where, ANY hydraulic cylinder that 'drifts or wanders' is a sign that there is a bad seal somewhere, either in the valve or cylinder itself.

Best of luck.
....

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greg_g
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2005-12-16          121151

George - check out the Attachment board at TBN. Buncha guys there right now - sitting around the stove in the feed store, trading backblading stories.

//greg// ....

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corvetteguy
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2005-12-23          121600

BACKBLADE UPDATE
I attached my shackle extender link to the
JM-180 and took to moving 6 inches of snow.
I found that the link still did not allow
enough movement of the blade, and would cut
into the stone driveway.
The best way the blade worked was to dissconnet the
top link and let it float.
Greg, you were right, without the top link you start to
bind the blade when backing up.
Just have to remember not to drive up to
something and then back up as the blade bites in
and I have no more room to go foreward to drop the blade
back down and reattach the top link.

The logging chains have made the 2 wheel drive into
a snow machine. I can drive across the snow covered
grass pulling the blade where the ag tires
would have just spun without even the blade.
George
....

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091755
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2005-12-24          121662

corvetteguy
This may be a dumb question, but why do you 'pull' your
backblade when doing snow removal. I know many do it, but
I just have never understood why. I am assuming you must
have a long driveway and are moving the snow to the sides.
I used a backblade first on my dad's farm when growing up
here in Wisconsin and I know 'pulling' the snow wouldnt
work here, just too much snow. That was a gear shift Allis
WD-45; now I have a backblade on a B2400 4+4 hydrostatic Kubota and it is really nice not having to shift. Have
always 'pushed' the snow here in Wisconsin.
Just wondering. Not trying to be a jerk here, I may learn something.
doc ....

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kthompson
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2005-12-24          121665

corvetteguy,
Knowing I am slow, from your earlier post it would have seemed what you purchased would have worked differently than you expressed. Just wondering, did you try chain as Murf suggested?
Thankfully we don't have snow, but how is it so different than moving dirt? ....

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corvetteguy
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2005-12-25          121688

My backblade is an old piece of
equipment. Got is at a farm sale for $125
a few years ago. It is heavy cast framing
with a circular hub that cannot be adjusted.
It can be rotated (difficult) but the locking
plate is welded to allow 1 or 2 avaliable
holes to line up.
If I push the blade the side angled which the
snow rolls off will bite in, no mater how I
adjust the tractor links. Raising the lift
does not help as it still bites in when the
snow loads the blade.
Pulling it with the top link loose allows
the blade to ride smooth without any major
bite in.
When the snow gets over a foot I imagine I will
have a problem.
The welded on feet pods were an attempt to stop
the bite in, but raised the blade off the
ground too much.
Maybe it is time for a new back blade.
....

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kthompson
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2005-12-28          121835

corvetteguy,
I don't want to beat a dead horse with some of my comments here and without seeing what you have if what I say is way wrong forgive me.

I would think using a chain as Murf suggested for third arm would serve better than no link. It would allow you to lift the blade for backing. It would also allow the blade to do some floating that a fixed third arm would not. Contrary to someone elses thought you can still use the blade pushing backwards with chain. You push with your lift arms and not your third arm.

As to your welded on skid plates, could they not have been raised to get the blade closer to the drive way?

As to your blade being difficult to adjust, it may have a place or places on it to grease. Or it may be such you have clearance to shoot grease between the moving parts to help.

My experience with old blades versus new ones is the newer ones seem to bit better than the old ones at least in dirt. Part of that is due to the design. It seems you have a old heavy blade and you may find a lighter weight and duty blade does not bite in the same.

Have you thought about Murphy Pipe set up? No doubt Mr. Murf would license you to use his highly prized and valuable patten. Just kidding. Have no idea if there is a patten or not. Ask Murf.

Again, as someone who does not have snow but has moved a good bit of dirt with scrape blade and box blades and such, I do not understand why snow would be so different and difficult. Guess it is based upon the volumnes in how to handle snow but very little on how to handle dirt. Then dirt normally does not fall 2 feet deep either.

Have you thought about a heated drive?

Wish you well,
kt ....

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