Go Bottom4D-TV MPEG-2 or Dish TV Network
 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee 
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2003-12-16 71357
I just renewed my C band analog programming subscription for the year and it looks like analog C band will be coming to an end in the near future. My system (General Intruments 450i) is about 10 years old now along with the decoder module which has a lithium battery that when it dies erases you decoder module ID. I have been looking around and reading up on 4D-TV/MPEG-2 and Dish TV. I am undecided as to which is the best system to go with. On the one hand Dish TV offers free equipment and installation but the programming is high. 4D-TV/MPEG-2 I have to pay for the equipment but get about 4500 channels of which many are free. I hate to trash my 10.5 ft. dish and the equipment if I can still use it but then again, I don't want to throw good money after bad. Any of you guys have any experiences with this stuff? Any comments and suggestions would be a great help. Thanks.
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-16 71359
I have DirecTV and love it, I also have C-band for 'local' (read Canadian channels) since I only get two stations with an antennae.
Luckily though as a Canuck I get every channel they offer for free, pay-per-view included, ;-p, so I cant speak about value, but the channel line-up, etc., is great.
Best of luck. ....
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 | Blueman
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 243 Washington, PA 
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2003-12-16 71360
Chief, I had Directv for years, and recently switched to DISH network. Works great, but I can't compare pricing with what you have had, and certainly not with what Murf pays! (How does that work? Socialized medicine and FREE TV?) I'm paying about $50/month for 3 receivers, 100 channels, including my local networks. If you go with either of the 2 small dish companies, spring extra for the "hard drive" receiver ("Tivo"), it is a great feature! No monthly cost with DISH network, that's why I changed! Merry Christmas to you and yours! ....
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 | kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 360 Shepherdstown, WV
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2003-12-16 71363
Plus by going with one of the newer systems, you get rid of the huge 10 foot dish!!! My brother has Direct TV but the only problem is when it storms very hard, it screws up the reception. The good part is that he left my parents use the other receiver and they use it at their place in the mountains. All they needed was another dish. It only costs him $5 extra a month. That works out pretty nice. ....
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-12-16 71365
We've had C-Band, DirecTV, and DISH although I don't know anything about 4DTV.
I don't miss the C-Band BUD one bit.
We had DirecTV about four years ago, but when we moved into our current house we opted for DISH because they had more of the programming we were looking for. Don't know if DirecTV has caught up or not.
DISH Pros: The hard disk based receiver is great, no subscription fee. All local channels are available in our area and they are mapped to actual channel numbers.
DISH Cons: Crappy customer service, receivers tend to be unreliable (spend the extra $1.99/month for the free replacement warranty, we're on our fourth 501 receiver), don't let them put you on their auto-pay program because if there's a problem you will fight them for six months to fix it (lots of folks have had this problem).
I had no complaints at all about DirecTV, but in fairness their 4-year-old receivers are much simpler than current DISH receivers.
....
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 | AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144 
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2003-12-16 71370
I had a Dish setup and switched to cable only because they upgraded with the high speed modems. When I moved out to where I live now, there was no cable, so I went back onto Dish.
I agree about the hard-drive TiVo-like boxes from Dish. They are great. I have not had any equipment failures with the Dish equipment. I set one system up myself and let the technician set another one up. It was not hard. As someone else said, I can move my second receiver around. I can take it to a cabin or other place with a dish installed.
Dish also had true HDTV channels if you get the right equipment. I spend about $50 per month with two recievers and 150 channels. I have found that PPV suits me better than a subscription to HBO or Showtime. ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-12-16 71373
Chief I have had the DirecTV for a long time with no real complaints. I compared the line up at the start of the systems and they were similar then and have not really comparison shopped since.
We do not have access to a fast line so the web based system is out of the question. My brother in-law was trying out ordering movies on the web with his cable modem when I was in Vancouver last and it seem to work fine.
This part of the country it is a wonder we have dial up. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-12-16 71374
OH I forgot. You need to see the Red Green episode where he turns his C-band into a solar cooker for Christmas Turkey dinner. Maybe you can do the same. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-12-16 71381
My guess is that a lot of DISH receiver failures are due to incredibly poor packaging during shipment. They ship these things out in a relatively thing cardboard box with tiny styrofoam endcaps and less than 1/2" clearance on all sides. One receiver was DOA, another lasted a week. Their packaging offers almost no protection from getting banged around by shippers and with hard disk receivers that can't be good. ....
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| JimP
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 58 NY
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2003-12-16 71421
Hey Chief - ditto for me with Dish Network -- have had mine for over 4 years now with no major problems beyond the original remote dying this summer. Good timing on my neighbor's part though, as I saw the installation guy installing a new dish on their house not long after. I couldn't figure out why their dish was pointing SouthEast towards the Atlantic, when mine was pointing SouthWest towards the middle of the country (we are in NY State). Come to find out they had signed up for the "International Service" which now makes sense. While I was BS'ing with guy, I happened to mention my bum remote and ended up getting a free replacement from a unit he had in the back of his truck. No complaints from me!
The sports packages are weaker on Dish Network, but I have just seen them advertising for the equivalent of NFL Ticket for the NHL -- 5 dedicated channels with some ridiculous amount of games a year. I'm gonna call and see if I can join up mid-way thru this season. Go Bruins! ....
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 | Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 347 New York
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2003-12-17 71489
Hi Murf,
My vote would be towards Direct TV based on content, sport and HDTV packages. You guys in Canada had a great run regarding the legality of Direct Tv and the means to receive its signal. Thats industry has come to a screaching hault because of recent Canadian legislation, the FBI raids, RNCP, and DTV civil suits...Oh well all good things (especially realy good things) come to an end sooner or later!!
If someone needed to choose between DTV or Dish, advantage
would be DTV at this time. The sport packages (NFL pkg which is in HD) and the standard HD content edges out Dish.
The Porn options are fantastic as well ( there is more to life than tractors!)
However Dish is not a bad option at all. They have been adding content that they are very close in offerings. There is a difference is video compression, but the average home owner would never tell the difference...
Just my .02 cents on a subject i know way too much about :)
Duc
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| Blueman
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 243 Washington, PA
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2003-12-17 71490
Are "Porn options" sort of like implements? (Life is ALL about tractors!!) LOL!! ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-17 71494
Duc, I'm not sure what sceeching you heard down there, but it sure wasn't the 'industry', at least not up here, it just isn't as public as it used to be.
The lawsuits back-fired BIG TIME so thats a non-starter.
You guys still have 'free' options too, it's just that you can't 'experiment' with an American system, it has to be a Canuck receiver.....
As for the other 'options' I just had angioplasty, I think I better take it easy for a while, besides if I want to watch bouncing plastic parts I can take my 'Bota for a drive, LOL.
Best of luck.
....
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| Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 347 New York
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2003-12-17 71507
DTV cant be offered legally in Canada, well you cant legitimately subcribe to it is the better way of stating that. Is it called Bell that is Canadian? Becareful with your laws because Canada has revised them specifically to
include DTV and the signals being decoded
(Illegally)...what was once open and free and become underground and dangerous.
Canadians face civil litigation just as easy as us Americans, along with enforcement from RMCP (spelling?)
enforcement techniques...you just dont see the shop's closing, the distribution locations and dealers being raided
but its happening all over Canada...oh dont think for a second the lawsuits arent working, they are BIG TIME...
Word of advice be self sufficient in that area....
Other than that,
I havent figured a way to ride my tractor and receive my Porn yet, my implement would get in the way, but i working on it...:)
Duc ....
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 | wbowhunt
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 207 West Virginia
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2003-12-17 71515
I had Dish for almost 4 years and had no problems what so ever, Until----- We went to move, The house we were purchasing had a Direct TV system on it. I liked the programming on Dish ( optoins that Direct does not have ( RFD-TV. Classic tractor shows and FFA ( I haven't seen one tractor on any Direct TV channels ;-( , Any way back to my problem. I called them about their moving service to hook me up and I wanted to add a receiver. They wanted big bucks. I had never missed a bill and never had a problem and yet they would not upgrade me for free, even though they were giving new customers great deals on multiple receivers. Once your a customer you can't get those deals. So I called Direct and they hooked me up. When I went to cancel my dish networks, all of the sudden they wanted to help me out and give me all these great deals and a free additional receiver. GO Figure. Although if it were not for the fact that I would have to move the dish and rewire the feed to my house, I would switch back to dish. I miss my rfd-TV ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-18 71576
Duc, first of all you are correct that you cannot subscribe to DTV from Canada.
Your comment about Canadian laws is, with all due respect, completely wrong, period. There are revisions COMING, but nothing has been done yet. In fact the revisions are going to be a real problem for our neighbours to the south.
Basically what happened was DTV lost the Canadian court cases on every count except ONE, the high courts upheld a single paragraph of a law which dates back to before WWII which says it is not legal to 'decode and encoded signal'. The problem is, that means listeneing to someone on a digital cell phone is illegal, and since the Government has issued licenses to millions of Canadians to do just that the law is fatally flawed and the court instructed the Gov. to fix it.
I have been self-sufficient since day one anyway, it is not complicated technology.
As for you guys down there, the two Canadian systems are wide open to you and in Florida in particular there is such a blatant open market it's laughable. I even know of many Americans who recieve "test" files for DTV in the US and do there own card updates, it's about as complicated as checking your email nowadays.
Best of luck. ....
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| AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-12-18 71590
Dish is funny about the cheap systems and upgrades.
When I got a cable modem, the cable company gave me about $400 in rebates when I turned in my Dish box. When I moved to an area without cable, I went back to Dish and wanted a new system. When they checked my SSN, it came back as a previous user. They wanted hundreds of dollars for the systems. Solution?
We registered my wife as the subscriber. Different SSN; new recording receiver, new second room receiver, new dish, kept my old dish for a cabin when I need it. So, I can even take the second box with me to the cabin. The cost of the equipment was all covered by programming rebates, so it was free. ....
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 | psimonson
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 57 Northeastern Tennessee
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2003-12-18 71597
wbowhunt: I replaced cable with DirectTV about 3 months ago - I've got RFD-TV on channel 379. ....
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 | harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY 
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2003-12-18 71598
Murf I guess I gotta get smarter on the new systems. I still have my C-band and had to get a new receiver for it recently. I still like the c-band it has more than paid for its self in savings over the digital programing.
I like the c-band stuff but do miss the Canada feeds especially when the olympics are on.
Apparently you are up to speed on which systems get the best bang for the bucks? ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-18 71599
Actually harvey if you have NEW C-band receiver you also have a DTV receiver, you just don't know it.
Almost all of the "C-band" receivers made in the last few years are also K & Ku compatible, which means with an old PC hooked up and a little keyboard voodoo and some software you have a DTV system too .....(;-p)
Best of luck. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-12-18 71602
Murf, sounds to me like 4D-TV and DTV are one in the same thing. You guys just call it by a different name. The MPEG-2 format reciever is what all of the old C band network wild feeds went to. So for what you are saying, sounds like the 4D-TV/MPEG-2 system is the way to go. One thing I just recently learne is that the decoders/cypher module in the back of the satellite reciever has a lithium battery service live of about 10 years give or take a few. I and when the battery finally dies the decoder/cypher module ID # is erased and you must buy a new or refurbished one. Evidently the battery can be replaced but required modification and soldering the circuit board in the module and is not a job for the average Joe. I have had my C band analog system for about 10 years and I suppose I will update to 4D-TV/MPEG-2 if and when it finally craps out. Until then, I will keep bending over and enjoying these "wonderful" programming prices. ;-) ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-18 71604
Randy, while I would NEVER condone any kind of illegal or immoral actions, aside form helping mount an LCD screen on his cUT so he can wathc porn while he works, LOL, I would like to point out a statement made on the website of a major satelitte company.
"The "de-facto" standard VC-II was the world's MOST hacked scrambling system. Therefore, all older VC-II decoders will be replaced by VC-II+ and forthcoming VC-II+ RS (Renewable Security) systems, which HOPE to thwart this piracy through the use of a renewable smart card."
PAY? for programming????
I assume I can read between the lines here...
Best of luck.
....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-12-18 71606
All of the MPEG-2 stuff is digital feed "free to air" FTA broadcast. Alot of 4D-TV stuff is free but the goodies like HBO and STARZ I will have to pay for. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-12-18 71608
What size dish do you have Murf. Up at your latitude requires that you have a monster of at least 14 ft. doesn't it? Probably more like a 16 footer would be required? I have a 10.5 ft. dish and that is the minimum size recommended for 4D-TV in my area. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-18 71611
Randy, my C - Ku dish is a 2m (6 footer) and my DTV is a 30cm (12") unit.
The LNB is more critical than is the dish size with the newer equipment.
Are you running a VCII+ unit ? ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-12-18 71616
I have the Crystal Pak 517 C/Ku LNB on my dish (.5 db Ku LNB & 17* C band LNB). I added a Saginaw 36" actuator and the dish is in good shape. I am not sure what decoder unit I am running but it is the orginial decoder module I purchased when I had the system installed. Are the older decoders better than the newer decoders or vs versa? ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-18 71621
Hmmmm, how do I put this delicately......
Better, better from your point of view, or from the point of view of the people who would like to continue receiving your money every month ????
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Carefully re-read the quote in my prior posting, this time read BETWEEN the lines. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-12-18 71628
Thanks Murf, maybe I need to talk to you about this more in detail on the side via email. If you wouldn't mind that is? ;-) ....
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| harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2003-12-18 71639
I have a GI 550i with the vcII. I do most of the work on the system but my old 550i had a power supply issue and had to send it in. It could not be fixed, reasonably. So I found another 550i to replace it. Other than LNB's and polarity box it has been trouble free until the power problem.
I would like to have more time to play with it. You P-Q'd my intrest in the other side. I'd have to start reading and searching info.
To many irons in the fire to play with that, now. But I would like to be in yours and Chiefs discussion. My e-mail is posted.
Chief e-mail me I have something to run by you but not on this forum. Thanks! Harvey ....
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| wbowhunt
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 207 West Virginia
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2003-12-18 71642
psimonson.
I don't know if you have a special package or some how are on a different Satelite, we do not have channel 379. We jump from 377 to 402. I included the link to DirectTV guide for us. I may have to call them and see if there is a way for me to get that channel with out paying an arm and a leg.
Thanks ....
Link:
Click Here
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| wbowhunt
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 207 West Virginia
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2003-12-18 71644
Never mind I did some more research and found that it is only available to Multi satelite system users. Guess I will have to look into that next. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-12-18 71648
Harvey, if you are interested below is the link to the system I am looking at. I am still learning about it but it can be easily user installed into an exhisting C band analog system or at least so I am told. As was explained to me the 4D-TV system has about 5,000 channels. ....
Link: 4D-TV
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| Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 347 New York
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2003-12-18 71654
Hi Murf,
I take exception when someone says I'm dead wrong, other than that I still like you :) :)!!
Below is a tidbit of "exclusive Candian order" called the Anton Piller..Its doubful you got started in the industry without help from somewhere, the question is does it point back to you? Most are civil ($$$) outcomes but it could lead to criminal implications...I will only touch lightly on this topic after this post....Ducati996
See below:
This is part of the anton piller order served on XXXXX by DTV and Echo. It gives insight of what anton piller orders may consist of.
Here is the anton piller order served on XXXXXX
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Order requiring the Pirate Defendents or any person upon whom the Order is served to forthwith deliver up, grant access and disclose to the Plaintifs' representives any and all of the Evidence, wherever situate, including but not limited to:
1-any and all Piracy Technology
2-the names and addressess of any and all of the Pirate Defendent' suppliers, and any and all customer and other persons who have been provided with or agreed to purchase Pirate Technology from or whose buisness has been solicitated by the Pirate Defendents for the purpose of selling selling the Piracy Technology;
3-any and all records of purchases, sales or distribution of Piracy Technology, including any financial records, ledgers, books, accounts, banking records and documents which disclose the nature, volume and extent of the Piracy Defendents' buisness and;
4-the whereabouts of all of the Evidence, whether under the possession, custody or control of the Pirate Defendents or any third partie.
....
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| wbowhunt
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 207 West Virginia
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2003-12-18 71658
Direct TV. Well I found out why I can't get my RFD-TV. IT seems that at the time the local guy installed my system, there was no incentive for him to install and align a Multi satilite dish, hence he installed a single. I can now upgrade an the low low price of just $49.99 installed. Meaning someone has to come out, remove the old single dish, Leaving holes in my siding and install a new dish around the corner of the house in order to receive from all three satilites. ( Maybe if the trees are not in the way ) then rewire part of the main feed from the dish to the splitters by either running along the outside of the house about 45' or drilling yet another hole into the side of my house. And all this gains me 4 additional free channels. I think Not. Oh well, I guess I will have to find a friend who has dish and have them record me a couple hours a week.
....
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| harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2003-12-19 71670
Yup that is the direction I was headed, only not sky vision their prices seem awful high. I did get the replacement 550i for $125 so I keep plugging along with it.
Mostly only do his, discovery, westerns and hbo oh yea and cmt. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-12-19 71688
Duc, me thinks you misunderstand my statement, and I like you too, even if you do ride an Italian bike instead of a German bike like me....(;-p)
What I was trying to say is it is really a thin line the Government is NOT prepared to yet define whether it is legal or not, civil litigation is another matter, anyone can commence an action against anyone else for nearly anything they feel like, that's called "Green Mail", make it more expensive to fight than to stop doing something and people will take the cheap way out nearly every time.
The DTV/Bell folks learned that the hard way in BC when they sued a dealer for selling US systems to people in Vancouver, then they got to court and it came out the systems were sold to him by the VERY PEOPLE who were now SUING him to STOP selling them. It turns out they had taken them as part of a promotion, turn in your 'pirate' set and get a 'legitimate' set for free. The folks at Bell had planned to re-patriate them but they were unsaleble in the US because DTV dealers give away brand NEW ones if you sign up for service, why BUY a used set when you can have NEW for fREE. So instead they re-slod them in CANADA to distributor who just re-sold them again in Canada.
Then it came out under cross-examination that even though DTV was crying foul and pleading for the courts to make these nasty Canadians give them their smart-cards back, their labelled 'property of ...' that a) that meant squat in Canada, we're still a soveriegn nation, and b) even though DTV only had X number of subscribers, they themselves had knowingly (and profitably) sold 6.5 million more receivers & cards than they had subscribers!!!
If they don't want people 'experimenting' with their equipment the simplest way to stop it is to NOT SELL THEM THE HARDWARE IN THE FIRST PLACE..... DUH!!!
As for an Anton Pillar order, that is still civil litigation, besides, it's pretty tough to search an email address for black boxes....... LOL
Best of luck. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-12-19 71691
Harvey, where do you buy your satellite equipment? I buy most of mine at Skyvision, they seem to have the best service and prices although Prime Focus has better prices on some stuff. Prime Focus has the Motorola Model 922 on sale for $678.99 and Skyvision has them on sale for $799.95 but also has open box/return specials for $649.95 . I think Skyvision will match a competitor's price too. ....
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