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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon 
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2003-11-03 67927
I'm thinking about getting a portable winch that fits in a 2" receiver hitch. Since I have a hitch on both the tractor and truck I'd like to be able to use it on both.
But I don't know anything about winches. What do I look for? What are good or bad brands? How do they connect electrically? How do you control them while protecting yourself in case something snaps? How would I size it to pull a 4000 lb tractor up a hill? Obviously I'd need to be sure the hitch could handle the pull.
Comments from experienced winchers are appreciated.
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 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-11-03 67930
Ken I think the large cash out lay for a winch may not be justified here. In all likihood, you probably will not use it that much if at all now that you have a new perspective on slopes and the soil conditions.
During my 21 years in the Army we used the winches rarely and they are VERY dangerous. We would put a large blanket or a canvas over the cable in the event the cable broke (and I have seen them break) the blanket or canvas would catch the broken end when it comes rifling back at the tow the pulling vehicle or the towed vehicle.
As a rule I would suggest that if you decide to go with a winch that you buy one rated for the heaviest possible configuration your tractor may be used in. Then add at least 10, and I would recommend more like 20% - 30% "fudge factor" so for example, if your tractor weigh in around 5,000lbs. at its heaviest go with a minimum 7,500 lb. pull winch or more.
Your truck will never be able to hold that much pull without slipping in most cases and you would have to either wrap the cable around a large tree or other solidly fixed object or buy a ground type anchor which is something akin to looking like a cross between a boat anchor & plow.
You can either run a set of jumper clamp type heavy duty battery cables to the tractor battery or use a spare battery and save some money on cables.
I still think that would be a very expensive piece of equipment for very occasional use. I have gotten stuck like that on a hill ONE time. After loosing that set of drawers, I never pushed it that far again and am much more conservative.
Your soil and weather conditions are VERY different from mine and it may well be used more than I am thinking. That's a call you will have to make. Just be VERY VERY careful and stay away from being inline with or near that cable when winching and take it SLOW and EASY.
You can also get by with a lessor strength pull winch by using pullies to multiply the winch pull torque but you may not always have enough cable to pay out if no tree or other objects are close and the ground is soft. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-03 67934
Chief, I see your point but here is my reasoning.
We have nasty clay soil here, and from previous threads it's becoming obvious that no tire really works well on clay. To top things off our clay is wet 6-7 months of the year, making it really nasty, and even when dry I've almost got stuck a couple of times. To top things off our property is very hilly so I can see getting stuck once in awhile.
Also, I sort of look at the winch as a safety mechanism. If I ever get a little off kilter I may be able to stop and use the winch cable as a safety line until I get out of trouble.
I'm not in a big rush to get a winch. In fact I'll probably poke around on ebay and in the classifieds and wait to see what comes available. In the mean time I'm hoping to learn more about them and how to use them safely. ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-11-03 67936
Snow mobile club bought some a few years ago and they could pull about 7 to 8000lbs with around 100 ft of 5/16 cable. Had a remote so you could run it from the seat while bringing on the power cause the winches never seemed to do it all. Had a quick release so you could find that special tree that was rarely there or at best just five feet further. ....
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 | AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144 
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2003-11-04 67957
Ken, I have used a variety of winches before. I tend to like Warn winches, but there are other good ones (ramsey). Look around a lot before you buy one. There is some terminology to learn.
Single line pull is the rated pull of the winch. It can be specified in the actual pull force or in a more arbitrary "rolling load" specification. The rolling load spec is only an estimate and is always larger than the actual pull force.
The counter point to single line pull involved the use of a snatch block. The block is a pulley that allows for doubling the cable to get twice the pulling force for the same winch. You attach the block to the tree or other anchor and run the cable from your vehicle to the block and back to your vehicle again.
The other area of difference concerns the guides for the cable as it exits the winch. These can be oblong bushings (Haus fairlead) or can have multiple rollers to guide the cable (roller fairlead). The roller version is better, more expensive, and requires some maintenance.
Remotes can be on the end of a cable or wireless. I prefer the cable variety. If I have to punch the button twice for my garage door, it is no big deal. If I am winching a vehicle it has to work, NOW!
Another potential problem with winches is the amount of electricity that they consume. I think that it might be pretty easy to use more than a CUT battery and charging system can provide. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-11-04 67961
Ken, the ole' Chief speaks wise words indeed as does Art & AC.
If you don't mind a little tinkering, you can probably find an old gear winch from an old wrecker in the junk yard. These were driven from an open chain running up from a PTo on the tranny of the old trucks. You can then do one of two things, find a small hydraulic motor to chain drive it, or mount it onto a plate fo steel and chain it to an adapter which slips over the PTO on your tractor and mounts on the 3pth.
As for capacity, the weight of the object you need to pull doesn't have as much to do with it as it's ability to roll, or in this case, it's resistance to moving in the desired direction. In other words it would lkikely take less power to make a loaded semi move on flat level ground than it would to drag a CUT buried to the differentials out of a mud pit.
I would have to say you would probably be better off spending a few bucks on a set of 4 tire chains, the diamond pattern type with carbides.
Best of luck. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-04 67993
After my recent traction troubles you bet I'm buying chains for all four tires. I'm not convinced they will bail me out of the worst troubles though, thus the perceived need for a winch. I'm in no big hurry, though, so if I can find a good used one that's OK with me.
As always thanks to all for the clear and helpful info and ideas. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-11-04 68002
Ken how much clay do you have? Is it your lawn? Is it everywheres you may be working? Does it normally just stay greasy on top and you can't dig down?? If your conditions are basically a lot of clay and yes to those answers look for a set of ag tires, not wide ones and rims. Be sure you are getting the steep bars of 35 degree if at all possible and you might want to look for R-1w but I don't believe they make them in the size you would need. For the tires I saw in the picture I think there are better industrial tires available. They look like they are a low bar design which adds to it's rigidity which means little or no flex or ability to absorb energy and grab. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-04 68007
We don't have a lawn per se, but there is clay everywhere on our property. It's always greasy on top when wet but usually there is no problem digging. When it's dry it's slick too - it's weird, sort of a sandy clay if that makes any sense. When it's dry the tires can still spin and dig in deep. I dig stumps out with the loader and digging is never a problem, it's not that hard. The R4s I have certainly have little to no flex to them, even at low 15 lb pressure. ....
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 | bnrhuffman
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 107 Falling Waters WV 
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2003-11-05 68106
I agree whole heartedly with AC. Ive been off-roading for a number of years and have had the occation to use or to see winches being used on several times.
The 2" receiver mounts are nice for emergency use on your vehicle but Im not sure if I would use it on a CUT unless the hitch is bolted directly to the frame or rear axle of the tractor, not to the 3ph or loader bucket.
The only thing AC said that I dont agree with is the fairlead. For use with a 2" reciever mount, I believe the way to go would be the haus fairlead. The reason is that I would only make straight pulls with a receiver mount, not side pulls, so a roller isnt needed.
The other concern on a CUT would be the electrical system. I dont believe its capable of handling the current that a winch of the size you would need (6000 to 8000 lbs) would draw. That size winch can draw up to 400 amps under a hard pull. It wouldnt take long for your battery to drain so a good deep cycle auto battery is in order.
While the portable winches are good for emergencies, they arent as portable as they sound. An 8000lbs winch with 100ft of wire cable and the mounting plate is going to weigh almost 100lbs. Not something you want to be slogging through the mud with.
As for the size or rating of the winch you should have, take the weight of the vehicle (or tractor) and multiply it times 1.5. That will give you the recommended winch rating.
The power for the winch will run directly off the battery posts so they are easy to wire up. For a portable mount, you will need a quick disconnect (basically a plug) to make things easier. A cable hand controller from the winch is the only way to go for your application.
Any of the name brands are good winches for ocational use. Warn (the best in my opinion), Ramsey, Superwinch, Milemarker are all the names. There are some you can get from the tool companies that are probably adequate but not as dependable. The higher end winches are going to have thermal switches that keep them from overheating on long hard pulls, integrated sylnoids that are supposedly more weather resistant, and roller fairleads. If you dont plan on using the winch real hard or alot, you dont need the whistles and bells.
Last but not least. Winch safety. Im not going into all of it, that would be impossible in one post, but the basics are, protect yourself and others from a cable snap by staying out of the direct line of the cable, stand back as far as possible from it, and throw something on the line such as a jacket or sandbag. If the line breaks, it will be more likely to fall to the ground than fly back in your face. Dont wrap yourself up in the winch. Ive seen people get fingers, sleeves, watches, etc. caught in the winch as they are winding it back in. The same goes for not getting between the cable and trees, rocks, vehicles etc.
Wear leather gloves. Wire cables can fray over time and use and thats not good on the palm of your hand.
Elecric winches will get hot under hard use. As a rule of thumb, if the winch motor housing is to hot to comfortably hold your hand on, its time to give it a break for awhile.
Always hook to something that is bolted securely and directly to the frame of whatever you are pulling. Never use a bumper or other thin metals. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-05 68107
bnrhuffman, what a great post! Thanks much for all the good info. I hadn't really considered the 3ph being too weak for using a winch on the receiver hitch but I'm sure you're right. This means I'd have to pull from the truck, which will reduce the utility I was hoping for. ....
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| bnrhuffman
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 107 Falling Waters WV
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2003-11-09 68306
I just received my holiday catalog from 4 Wheel Drive Hardware and this caught my attention. I dont know how much $$ you want to spend or even if you are still considering a winch but apparantly Warn now makes a Winch that is specifically designed to be portable. Its the Warn M6000 short drum. It already comes with a 2" receiver mount, quick disconnect, carry handle and is lighter with only 50' of cable. All for around $680.
Ramsey also makes a series of winches ranging from 5000 to 9000 lbs called the QM (quick mount) series that includes the mount, quick disco and so on starting at about $670.
Just something to think about. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-11-09 68326
Ken, I have been thinking.
Maybe you can translate the vertical motion of your FEL or 3 point hitch into lateral motion by means of a pulley. You could use a come-along to take up the slack in the line first.
It wouldn't be fast, but it would be cheap and would only be used for really tough times. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-09 68328
bnrhuffman, thanks for the tip. I saw the portable mount Ramseys in a Northern catalog but haven't seen the Warns. Yep, I'm still shopping for a winch but I'm sort of hoping to find a good used one on ebay or somewhere else.
Mark, I hadn't thought of that but it seems like a very simple idea. By chaining a pulley to the base of a decent sized tree and using a cable I could probably pull a tractor along at maybe 5-6 feet at a time. It would be time consuming, but a lot less work than digging a tractor out of a hole with a shovel. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-11-09 68331
Ken, the other thing you could try and I am not so sure how practical or how well this would work is an 2 speed boat winch. I have one on my boat trailer to pull the Sea Ray about 8,500 lbs. up on to the trailer. (5:1 & 12:1 ratio) Pulling a boat which is boyant in water and a tractor on slippery ground are two different things but the priciple still applies. I use a 10,000 nylon strap on my winch but you can use a cable too. You would be pretty much limited to staight line pulls and you would have to fabricate some kind of mount to hook it up to your tractor 3 pt. hitch. If you used good safety precautions, you could minimze the risk of being so close to the winch while pulling. This is JUST a thought and maybe not such a great idea, but it would be tremendously cheaper and more practical for the occasional emergency use. My winch is the Fulton 3,200 lb. pull winch.
....
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| AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-11-09 68356
Mark and Ken,
If a 3ph or loader can generate 1000-2000 pounds of lift, wouldn't it be significantly weaker than a winch?
For times that I have been in a vehicle without a winch and headed into the rougher areas, we have taken a hand operated "come-along" to use with our pull straps. As you described, it would not be for everyday use, but when you need it, you can get these hand operated winches that will pull 4000 pounds or more. I have never had to use a "backup" winch like this, but I have had one in reserve on at least a dozen trips. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-09 68357
AC, that's a good point. I guess you could use a set of pullies to gain a mechanical advantage, but you would reduce the distance pulled each time you raise the loader. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-11-10 68369
AC, I am not an engineer, so I am flying in the dark here....
Is there a direct mathematical correlation between the line pull rating of a winch spool and the lift capacity of an FEL? Do pounds = pounds in both cases?
I have a bit of trouble believing that some of the winches advertised out there will actually dead lift 4 tons.
I sort of envisioned the loader pulling a line or strap straight up from some tackle situated directly below the back of the bucket while the operator put some power to the wheels at the same time.
The whole idea is based on the fact that Ken's tractor didn't get "buried", it just needed some directional help, at least at the beginning of the episode. Six feet of help might have put it back on terra firma.
....
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| AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-11-10 68378
Winch advertisements are misleading and I don't like them. Some will specify the dead lift capacity and others discuss the rolling load. The rolling load is always higher, but has so many assumptions associated with it that I think it is almost useless. If a winch manufacturer says a winch will handle a 6000 pound rolling load, is that in mud, on flat ground, over big rocks...? So, answering your question, I don't think that there is a clear mathematical relationship between rolling load and dead lift capability. There may be some industry standard for specifying "rolling load" but I don't think that it is widely known.
The other part of the marketing hype is duty cycle. You can overdrive a motor and it will overheat. So, if your winch can only develop its rated pull for one minute and then it has to rest for ten, it is going to take a while to complete the winching operation. For duty cycle and endurance there is no substitute for the mass of the winch and bigger is always better.
I am pretty sure that you can get winches that can pull at 2000-3000 pounds. You can double that pull capacity with a snatch-block pulley, but it also halves your winching speed. I have not looked at vehicle winches for a few years, so I don't know what is commercially available.
Mark, there is no doubt about it that you can generate pull the way you are describing with the loader or 3PH. The way you describe it, I guess that you would attach a pulley to the tractor frame and pull with the loader against that. The question is always going to be "How much pull and over what distance and direction will you need to winch to get out of the problem?"
It would seem to me that you could generate a lot more force by digging the bucket in and rolling it to push you a foot or so at a time, but that only helps when moving straight forward. Another thought would be to hook a chain or strap to the bucket and roll bucket to tighten the tow line. You might be able to get a couple of feet of movement using this approach, but you could not pull at too much of an angle. The "tackle" that you mentioned would allow you to pull at a pretty significant angle to the tractor frame.
....
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| AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-11-10 68382
I did some digging into the data. This is for a top of the line winch. One major winch manufacturer clearly says that they can actually pull 9500 pounds on the first layer of the winch drum. (all cable extended off of the winch) That drops to around 6000 pounds when the winch has four layers of cable on it already. I am not saying that I believe the 9500 spec, I am only reporting it, but other things seem accurate in the specs like the reduced capacity with a full cable drum.
Here is some interesting data.
Pull; Speed; Current
0 ; 62; 47
2000; 16; 160
4000; 12; 230
6000; 9; 305
8000; 7.6; 370
9500; 6.7; 425
The speed is in feet per minute. Look at the current that is required for 9500 pounds of pull. You had better have a backup battery as well as the engine running. I would think that most truck batteries are going to be depleted in a couple of minutes at that drain rate. These ratings are for the first layer of the winch spool, so with a full spool, the 6000 pound load would also draw 425 amps. I did not see any indication that they were using any kind of pulley tackle for these tests.
If these ratings are true, then this winch should lift most trucks off of the ground. But, the huge forces are necessary when a wheel is down in a hole and the winch is pulling at an angle. It may have to drag the vehicle as well as pull at a very unfavorable position to pop the wheel(s) out of a hole. Fortunately for most people, it is not necessary to apply the high levels of force for very long.
Sorry, but I don't seem to be able to keep the spacing in my table. The first number on each line is pull in pounds, the second is speed in fpm, and the third is the current in amps. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-11-10 68385
There will be one big problem with using a FEL as winch as described above.
When you exert upward force with the FEL against a cable, which then ran down a pulley under the front end and out to at close to a 90 degree angle to an anchor of some form there will be a tendancy for the cable to want to pull in a straight line.
In this case, if it is easier to lift the front end (maybe weighing 1500 pounds) than it is for the tractor to roll out of the situation it's in, that is exactly what will happen. You will then have created a 'wheelie machine' not a winch.
Best of luck. ....
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| AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-11-11 68476
Mark, I ran through the numbers on Warn's top of the line winch, and it should be able to pull 9500 pounds with a single line cable on an empty cable drum. The overall conversion efficiency for converting electrical energy into winching work is about 50% which is normal. I guess that I am a little surprised by this, but that means that I have learned something new.
I mentioned that heat buildup would be a problem. The Warn winch I looked at uses over 5000 watts of electrical power, so it will heat up fast at full power. It should tell you something that they have included a temperature monitoring display on the remote for this winch as the new hot feature.
I figure that if you were pulling a CUT, this winch would use about 2500W. You would probably heat up the winch and deplete the battery in about ten minutes, but that would move you nearly 100 ft in the process.
Murf, I have seen winches lift vehicle front ends as you describe, but it depends on a lot of things. The most important thing is to hitch to a tree or other immovable object quite a distance away from the winch and to hitch at a point lower than the winch cable height on the vehicle. In that case, it will stay neutral to slight downforce on the wheels.
This Warn winch that I just looked over should be able to pull most light trucks straight up the side of a building. That would be a hell of a wheely machine.
....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-11-11 68478
I think you misunderstood my comment. I wasn't referring to using a winch.
I was commenting on the suggestion made earlier in the thread about using the upward force and motion of a FEL on a CUT to pull a cable attached to the bucket through a pulley below the FEL instead of a winch.
In this instance no matter where you anchored off, or what you used as an anchor point the cable would be forced to make a close to 90 degree bend. This change in direction would cause an upward force on the front end.
As for winching in general, the object of most winching operations is to 'unstick' a vehicle. Assuming we are talking about a vehicle which is sunk into the ground, the higher the anchor point the easier the pull since you are 'climbing out of' rather than 'climbing through' the ground.
Best of luck. ....
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| AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-11-11 68486
Thanks for the clarification.
I had thought that Mark was talking about a tackle block attached to the frame of the tractor, so that the work would happen between the loader and the frame mounted tackle block. ....
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| bnrhuffman
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 107 Falling Waters WV
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2003-11-11 68490
Ken,
A couple of problems I see with using the loader or 3pt is that the tractor must be running to use either. That means if you find yourself in another rollover situation, your SOL. That's ultimately the reason why I purchased an electric winch over hydraulic for offroading.
The second reason to not use the loader is that by the time you realize you need a cable to recover, you may already be in a situation where raising the bucket will effect your center of gravity enough to cause a rollover.
As for the 3pt hitch. I just dont think its got enough grunt to pull you out of sticky mud and up a hill.
If your not ready to buy an electric winch, your probably best going with a nice, heavy duty come-a-long and a long section of chain (nylon straps stretch and make comealong work even less efficient). Come-a-longs are alot of work, but in a pinch, they beat not having anything. The few times Ive used my come-a-long (before I got my Warn) I cursed at it the whole time I was using it, but its never let me down. I still carry it as a backup.
If your even considering using a comealong or rigging something to the loader or 3pt, dont be too critical of line speed when shopping for an electric winch. Your not in a competition, a few seconds isnt going to matter. The same goes for letting the winch cool off. There is no reason you need a temp monitor on the hand control. Take a second, feel the motor, if its hot, let it rest and it will still out pull a hand winch or loader rig.
On a side note. I saw something a few years ago that mounted on the rear wheels of a tractor somehow. It was basically a cable drum on each wheel. As you would back up or pull forward, it would wrap the cable. I dont know how they mounted but it may be something to investigate. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-11 68491
bnrhuffman, your experience is showing and it sounds like you're right on all counts. I will still buy a winch but the urgent need for one has passed so I'm gonna take my time and wait for the right deal. Thanks for all the good advice! ....
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 | harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY 
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2003-11-11 68496
You could use two drums as a winch if you lock in your axles and keep your cables seprated, Not a good choice.
BUT generally a drum mounted on the right wheel of a tractor meant they had used the thing as a capisian winch for raising something heavy to drop on something.
Mostly for driven wells. ....
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