Go BottomMowing makes me think too much
 | bobad1
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 31 Eunice, Louisiana 
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2003-10-04 65515
While mowing my field with a little TC29 and 5 foot mower, I think a lot (yes, it hurts). Why do compact 4x4 tractors need those eedy beedy tires up front? I think they serve no purpose at all except cost savings. I want a 4x4 compact that has front tires the same size as the rear tires, and has 4 wheel steering. Front and rear wheels would only need to turn a few degrees, so linkages could be short and beefy. But what do I know?
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York 
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2003-10-04 65518
Could I sell you a Stiener? Or how about a clean used Ford County, 2plus2 IH? I normally like to mow lawn to have a free moment to finish thinking what I was being interrupted on the rest of the day! ....
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| bobad1
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 31 Eunice, Louisiana
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2003-10-04 65520
Art, To be honest, mowing does clear my mind out. Sure stuffs up my sinuses though. But really, aren't small tires up front on a utility tractor a relic of the past? As long as the front and rear wheels follow the same track, why not have the same size tires? Big tires with 4 wheel steering should be much better for any purpose. ....
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2003-10-04 65523
Thoose small tires give you the tighter turning radius that you need to mow in tight areas. I don't think an articulated unit can match the turning radius of a compact. Right? ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-10-04 65526
I once heard that a customer that I helped pick bigger front tires for his two wheeled drive tractor couldn't turn as well as he did before. This goes back about 20 years ago and the reason was the tractor was being used as a loader tractor for feed mixing. When we put the larger fronts on he couldn't just drive out the way he was and cut it back in the other building but had to make it twice. Bigger front tires don't turn as tight, don't ask me why other then you just turned a larger diameter tire and it makes a bigger circle. ....
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| bobad1
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 31 Eunice, Louisiana
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2003-10-04 65527
Mrwurm, I realize the smaller tires help the turning radius. I did mention 4 wheel steering however. 4 wheel steering would make very tight turns without much steering input. Articulated is not for me. Too expensive and too many things to go wrong. It would make a compact tractor either larger or weaker. ....
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| bobad1
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 31 Eunice, Louisiana
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2003-10-04 65528
Art, close your eyes and imagine a shiny new compact tractor with front tires the same as the usual rear tires, and 4 wheel steering. Imagine all the possibilities! FEL work much improved, quick connect front mower deck, etc. And just imagine how cool it would look. Just like a 1/2 scale monster farm tractor! ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-10-04 65529
Excavators have stuck with smaller tires up front so I would assume that there is a tighter turning radius.
Deer and other large tractors would crab steer both the front and back ends. Remember the back does not necessarily follow the front but cuts tighter than the front on a curve. This is speed dependent.
The system that GM uses has another computer to control the rear stearing with speed. Actually turns the opposite direction at slow speed. Seems like a complicated system for a tractor. The system in the Volvo V70 uses is simpler and allows torsion beam flex to stear the rear wheels, but provides no advantage at low speeds.
Articulated tractors steer much tighter than a regular tractor. I have not driven a small articulated tractor only large JD and Cat loaders, but you could never manuver a regular wheeled loader in the spaces you can with articulation. A large loader has a shorter turning radius than a pick up.
All the big farm tractors are articulate. It would take the whole field to turn around with out it. Steiner, Ventrac and Powertrac which are primarily mowing machines are all articulated.
Food for thought. ....
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| bobad1
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 31 Eunice, Louisiana
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2003-10-04 65531
Yes, 4 wheel steering has a funny pivoting action that could take some getting used to. This would be fine at normal tractor speeds, and excellent for FEL and mowing work. The real wheel streering could be disengaged for the road. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-10-04 65534
I have some friends that had the Deere. The front and back would act like the super steer system on the NH. On the highway you could easily be taking up both lanes if you forgot to disable before moving down the road. ....
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2003-10-04 65537
Bobad1, I guess I missed the point about 4 wheel steering. Yes, that is a different thing completley. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-10-04 65538
If you put big tires on the front they would have to be set out about two or three feet wider so the edges would not hit the tractor in sharp turns.
Then you would have to build your loader arms over the top of them to keep the tires from hitting the loader arms which would push the loader itself way up and way out front so that it could come in contact with the ground.
You would end up with a compact that is not a compact anymore. It would be three feet wider and five feet longer. ....
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| bobad1
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 31 Eunice, Louisiana
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2003-10-04 65539
Mark, with 4 wheel steering, the wheels would only need to turn a fraction of what they turn on 2 wheel steering. But you're right the big tires would get in the way of the FEL. See, that's why I asked you guys! ....
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 | AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144 
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2003-10-05 65596
As Mark said, you can't get the steering angle with bigger tires. 4 wheel steering would help that, but you would be taking a solid rear axle and adding high torque CV joints steering joints, and all the equipment to cause the wheels to articulate (assuming that you aren't talking about an articulating frame).
I think that it is a matter of cost compared to the benefit, among other things. I would expect a 4WS 4WD tractor with a straight frame and large tires at both ends to cost at least 30% more than a similar CUT.
Smaller tires also make it easier to get on and off the tractor without making it longer and give better visibility when using a FEL. Putting larger tires on the front would move the CG of the tractor forward and would potentially require more ballast for FEL work. As Mark also mentioned, the FEL would have to be larger to work over the tires, and this also would move the CG even further forward.
Now with respect to steering, I can lock a rear wheel brake and swing the front end around and pivot on a rear wheel. If the front had large lug tires, that would be impossible. I also think that the extra complexity of high torque articulated axles on front and rear would add up to a significant increase in maintenance costs.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-10-05 65604
I did a bit of work on the tractor yesterday and it was probably making me think too much as well. I remember recalling this discussion, glancing up while lying on the ground and thinking 'I don't believe there's a lot of room above the axle so that it could be moved up, and the drive shaft isn't that far beneath the engine.'
The axle would have to be moved up on the frame for bigger tires or the tractor would end up with an old time 'gasser rake.' I imagine a design to move the axle up would be possible but it looked like things on my Ford would have to be juggled around quite a bit.
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