Go BottomAn Example of Government Fed Too Much of Our Money and Out of Control
 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee 
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2006-03-15 126154
Sadly this seems to be a trend that is on the increase. Truely an example of corrupt, unaccountable government, out of control.
This is something that could conceivably happen to anyone of us. It should make your blood boil and we ALL need to be ever vigilante and fight this where ever it occurs.
Property fight in Cumberland County heats up
Lawsuit occurs as assembly eyes reform on eminent domain
BY GREG EDWARDS
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER
Saturday, March 11, 2006
Cumberland County's efforts to reclaim a school it sold at auction three years ago took a turn yesterday when the school superintendent appeared at the property to claim ownership.
Mary Meeks, the property's disputed owner, said she was intimidated by the actions of Superintendent James Thornton and others who showed up at the former elementary school without any warning. The school sits just off the north side of U.S. 60 in Cumberland, the county seat.
"This is not right, what they are doing," she said. The county is seeking to condemn her property for an amount that is only a third of what it is assessed for on county tax roles and much less than what she and her husband have invested, she said.
The condemnation dispute, in fact, has developed just as the General Assembly is considering a bill tightening up the state's eminent-domain laws. The legislature could make a final decision today whether it will go ahead with some sort of eminent-domain reform this year.
Meeks, a Farmville real estate agent, said she was in neighboring Buckingham County when county officials arrived at the old school and told a work crew and a tenant, who runs an appliance repair shop, that the county now owns the property. The workers were scared and so was the tenant, who was told he would have to start paying his rent to the county, Meeks said.
The county filed a condemnation suit and a certificate of taking against the property this week and deposited $200,000, the amount it estimates the property is worth, with the Cumberland County Circuit Court. Those filings, said Robert Hodges, the county's lawyer, gives ownership of the property to the county.
Not so, says Joe Waldo, the Meekses' lawyer, a property-rights advocate from Norfolk. Unless the Meekses relinquish the property willingly, the county cannot take it without a hearing and a court order, Waldo said.
State law, he said, says the county can get title to the property but only after the Meekses get due process.
Mary Meeks called county Sheriff Claude Meinhard to the school, and after Meinhard talked with Waldo on the phone and later with the superintendent, the county officials left. "They didn't apologize, but they left," she said.
Meeks said the officials told her that their attorney had told them they now owned the property.
The Times-Dispatch attempted to contact several county officials about the case yesterday but without success.
Meeks said she and her husband bought the school and 20 acres from the county with a sealed bid of $110,000 after it had been advertised for a month in a local newspaper. The school had sat vacant for several years and was in poor condition, she said.
They hoped to put in apartments and agreed to fix up the gymnasium and auditorium for public use, Meeks said. They obtained a $250,000 mortgage on the property and have spent about $400,000 renovating it, she said.
Besides the repair shop, four church groups use the building. The police have used the property for dog training and senior citizens walk in the gym for exercise, she said.
"I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court," Meeks said. "This is not fair. . . . This is what I term eminent-domain abuse."
Property owners are going to fight when a condemnor tries to take property for less money than it's mortgaged for, Waldo said. Essentially the county is asking the Meekses to pay to sell their property to the county, he said.
Link: Property fight in Cumberland County heats up
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 | wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676 
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2006-03-15 126157
Hey Chief
Don't blame the Government for a few as-holes who want to abuse the powers and priveleges of Government.
When I was in the Marines I overheard a Gunney yelling to a Lance Corporal "You can Hate some of the people in my Marine Corps but you DO NOT hate the Marine Corps" I have had many years to think about what he was saying and he was right. It is the people that make up the organization and som eof the people can screw it up for the rest. In the Corps in 68 and 69 they tried Drafting and wow! did we get some real low-lifes. Thos elow-lifes which were less than 10% of the entire Marine Corps gave the rest of us the bad names.
Like the Mayor and Govonor of N.O. they are to blame and how they have tried to turn the spotlight over to President Bush and try to stay in the shadows. The ones in your article will not be under investigation because someone STOOD UP and said NO.... One person CAN make a difference. The real owner has drawn attention to this country reps and these reps better hope and pray that they had legit reasons for what they were doing because they are now under the BIG LIGHTs. You have helped it by publishing on this site.... That is what I was trying to say earlier. Ignore it and it will stay, Fight it and it will leave. ....
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| wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676
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2006-03-15 126158
Hey Chief
Don't blame the Government for a few as-holes who want to abuse the powers and priveleges of Government.
When I was in the Marines I overheard a Gunney yelling to a Lance Corporal "You can Hate some of the people in my Marine Corps but you DO NOT hate the Marine Corps" I have had many years to think about what he was saying and he was right. It is the people that make up the organization and som eof the people can screw it up for the rest. In the Corps in 68 and 69 they tried Drafting and wow! did we get some real low-lifes. Thos elow-lifes which were less than 10% of the entire Marine Corps gave the rest of us the bad names.
Like the Mayor and Govonor of N.O. they are to blame and how they have tried to turn the spotlight over to President Bush and try to stay in the shadows. The ones in your article will not be under investigation because someone STOOD UP and said NO.... One person CAN make a difference. The real owner has drawn attention to this country reps and these reps better hope and pray that they had legit reasons for what they were doing because they are now under the BIG LIGHTs. You have helped it by publishing on this site.... That is what I was trying to say earlier. Ignore it and it will stay, Fight it and it will leave. ....
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 | harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY 
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2006-03-15 126160
It seems like I recall OUR Supreme Court saying it is legal and good to take a persons land and give it to someone who needs it to make anything for the public.
We have a big battle brewing in Syracuse. A developer needs a bunch of tax paying property so he can develop Destiny USA the largest Mall in the US. The kicker is he has billions of dollars and will not pay the owners of the property fair value and wants the property condemmended. Of course since he is building this for the public it all must come off the tax rolls for 30 years.
Me thinks some where there are some very serious RATS in our legal and political systems.
I WILL BLAME GOVERNMENT AND THE PEOPLE THAT KEEP ELECTING THEM... KENNEDYS, CLINTON, GORE... and the friggin list goes on and on... ONE PERSON DOES NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Many people can make a difference. The realitor in Chiefs story does not and will never have the resources to go the distance. It will take many people to help with the legal battle brewing. The county will just increase taxes to fund their scheme. ....
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| wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676
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2006-03-16 126171
Harvey
I have never heard of a Mall claiming Eminent domain. It is Public but not government owned and only the Government can take a person's preperty thru eminent domain and that is usally after fair market price has been paid. I have only hear dof ONE case where a bridge had to cross a river in this one area, it was practicle for the road to go the route it went and there was NO other feasible solution or location other than the location being looked at for the bridge. The lady who lived there was offered Fair Market Value and she said NO! and they offered more than Fair Market Value and she still said No! and then thru eminent domain the Government took possession of the land needed for the bridge and that was the end of that. I would like to see a Mall take possession of private property thru emninent domain. I will bet it will NEVER happen. If you people in Syracuse allow it to happen, you all needs your heads examine and your people in involved sent to Jail. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2006-03-16 126193
wingwiper, NO WHERE in the 5th amendment to the constitution is "fair market value" mentioned, nor is it intended. "JUST COMPENSATION" IS called for and required by the 5th amendment. Just compentation is to make the injured party whole again.........meaning like for like replacement or genuinely agreed upon compensation.
America needs to get this "fair market value" out of their heads. Fair market value decided by whom????? How can you place a fair market value on an historic family estate or farm owned for centuries? I wouldn't take 3 times "fair market value" for my place as I could not replace it for that amount. I would take a replacement ranch in additionm to ALL of my costs to get there however. That would be just compensation.
I have heard the arguements about the bum who lives in a tar paper shack holding up a project for millions. Just not a rational arguement. If the public project is that important, then the public won't mind paying what it take to get the project done instead of stealing private property at gun point. ....
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| wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676
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2006-03-17 126215
Chief
My mom was killed many years ago in a Gas Explosion, we lost EVERYTHING. The family Bible had the last entry made in 1760 something. Paintings, coins, hand me down furniture, milk glass, depression glass, hummels, etc etc all gone, blown to bits.
I sued and for several years we debated the Fair Market Value. It is Fair and if you were the one who had to pay, you would be defending it. As far as your arguement about Family Value, you are right. Like my Lawyer said to me, that Bible was priceless to the family but to anyone else it was really worthless and Value is based on what someone would pay for it. That is the ONLY True Compensation otherwise it isn't considered compensation but rather selling price and that is only good if there is a buyer willing to pay. I know it seems unfair and for what we got compared to what was lost would make a grown man cry. After looking at it from both sides, the settlement seemed as far as I could get, if I had wanted to take the time a search out buyers for the items lost I don't really think anyone would have been willing to pay for that Bible what we felt it was worth. So thereofre, what was it really worth? remove sentiment and leave only the value.
The Bill of Rights 5th amendment says JUST COMPENSATION which is interupted as Fair Market Value.
Think from BOTH sides and what would you prose as being MORE fair? When you are talking about the Taxpayers or the collective of your Town etc, why should they pay more than what any of them is willing to buy it for? I can stand here all day and say MY Bible is worth $100,000 but unless I have someone willing to pay that amount, it IS NOT worth it regardless how sentimentaly I am attached to it.
As much as I do NOT agree with the 9-11 compensations by the U.S. Government ( they are NOT an Inusrance Company) the compensations for lost of life was based on several factors. The question first is simply what is the value of the human life lost? tough question. Historic homes can be subsituted and rebuilt, life can not.
1. Did you share the Same bed? (usually a spouse will get more than a sibling)
2. How old was the person ( To establish how many productive years were left based on the Avg life span)
3. What was their annual earnings?
But even still, things could change and this compensation did not allow for that. What if the guy would have won the Lottery? how could that be predicted or covered? what if the guy became a criminal and ended up in Jail for life? yet the family was reimbursed for a productive life. Too many factors, no one can say for sure, but anyone who has a better formula I am sure people will listen. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2006-03-17 126218
wingwiper, you are mixing apples and oranges here. Fair market value is and always has been predicated upon a genuinely WILLING seller and genuine WILLING PRIVATE PARTY BUYER. Eminent domain produces a price via the buyer holding a gun to the seller's head and dictating a price which is forced upon the unwilling seller. A key ingredient in fair market value is impact upon selling price the seller has by being able to refuse less than their target price. When you factor in other issues such as the reality that most sellers do not have the financial resources to sue or fight in court; they did as you did or any of us would have done and taken what you can get. This is most certainly NOT fair market value. It IS a buyer holding a gun to the seller's head and forcing the seller to accept the buyer's price.
A true example of "just compensation" would be rather than forcing a price at gun point upon the seller; assist the seller in identifying another property to their liking and assist the seller in completing an IRS Schedule 1031 Tax Exchange sale. The state would be required to buy the entire property if the seller refuses to sell only part. If the state is in fact offering fair market value, then purchasing the seller's entire property should not be an issue as the state can later auction off the uneeded portions of the condemned property at "fair market value".
i.e. if the state forces a 8 lane highway through the middle of my ranch and I choose not to sell only the land needed for the highway; the state would be required to buy my entire ranch and assist me in locating and purchasing another ranch to my liking. That IS just compensation. ....
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| wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676
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2006-03-17 126222
No! I don't think I was comparing Apples to Oranges.
You speak of the state as it as an endless pit of Gold. It is the Taxpayers, You and me that is in that pit.
I mean we could challenge the word OWNERSHIP and the results would have most baffled. The point I was making is that if the State or the Town needs that piece of property to put in a Bridge or a Highway, they will offer the Fair Market Value, which is based on the Appraisal of that land, if you thought that land was worth more, then you should have Grieved the assessment when it was first apprasied. Is it denying you an oppurtunity to wait it out and try selling later? Yes! but the needs of the many out wiegh the needs of the few. Is it fair? Well not always but that is based upon the people inolved and how it is represented. Can a Mall take possession of land for a purpose of building a Mall. NO! that is why I would like to see the premises to this story. The RailRoad could not even do it and Ranchers were cocered into selling by their own dimwits and today we refer to that as "Being Railroaded" If you want to be stubborn, the LAW IS on YOUR side. Eminent Domain has not been used very often and in times where a Dam is going to put in, then they will buy ALL of the proerty from the owner. otherwise it is ONLY as Needed.
Companies do NOT have that Power to take over. The Mall down the road a few miles, took many years to go in. Because from the beginning when they first starting to lay out their plans and apply, much of the property had been re zoned and transferred ownership. The Mall went in and everyone left Happy.
The By-Pass was in the workks for 25 years and only ended up going Half of the distance as originally planned, becasue many people who owned the land later, did NOT want to sell and because there were other alternatives, the state could NOT use Eminent Domain to aquire the land needed, instead they halted the project. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2006-03-17 126226
wingwiper, you can rationalize and attempt to justify anything you want but that is not what is in our constitution nor what the founding fathers wrote.
You speak of private property owners as if they are an endless supply of booty and plunder for the state to sieze for whatever reasons the so called tax payers deem.
I can try to illustrate to you what "fair market value" is but I just don't think you have any concept of fair market value and private property rights covered in our constitution.
No offense intend but you speak of the "tax payers" in much the same way that that Mao Tse Tung and Karl Marx spoke of "the people" when these governments engaged in the same things ours is doing now. Again, no where is "fair" mentioned in the 5th amendment. This clearly leads to the tyranny of the majority that Thomas Jefferson spoke of.
Although our nation and its municipalities have headed down the road of "if we can pass a law and the courts validate it, and law enforcement enforces it; it must be legal" mentality...........it does NOT make it constitutional.
What you contend is democracy governed society and this nation is NOT nor has it EVER been a democracy. No true democracy has ever survived in the history of mankind. It is a representative republic. We CANNOT just continue to vote for whatever we want as a majority. Our constitution and its original 10 amendments forbid this. In a nation of over 300 million (and growing) and ever dwindling finite resources; where does the line get drawn with respect to when the government, state, the tax payers (whatever term you choose) have siezed enough private property? In a Capitalist/Representative Republic aka the United States of America, the tax payers must be treated the same as ANY buyer in the market and compete just the same in order to have fair market value. Fair market value IS whatever price a truly willing seller and non-threating genuine buyer mutually and agreeabley arrive at. The EXTREMELY rare exception should be eminent domain used ONLY for ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL reasons of unavoidable neccessity.
The unfortunate reality due to greed, corruption, graft, and good ole' criminal conduct....... developers, power hungry political leaders, and liberal/socialist "do gooders" naturally resort to eminent domain to avoid paying fair market value. The "tax payer's" wants and absolute neccessities are two TOTALLY different things. Even our Candian friends understand this concept and do a MUCH better job with it. I am sure Murf can elablorate on this much than I can. Tag! Your it Murf! ;O)
....
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| DenisS
Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 367 NJ 
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2006-03-17 126232
wingwiper,
your quote: "I have never heard of a Mall claiming Eminent domain."
You must have not been paying too much attention to eminent domain issues in the last several years. I can list 3 instances of the top of my head in the area where I live, where eminent domain laws were used to rob people of their property to give it to private developers under the guise of "increasing revenue base". Just go to castlecoalition.org to see for yourself.
Like I said before, the most important role of government is to protect peoples lives and property. When the government ceases to perform this function, or worse yet, to take peoples lives and property unjustly (Ruby Ridge comes to mind), such government looses it's justification for existence, and it's only a matter of time when people come up with a different form of government. ....
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| wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676
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2006-03-17 126235
I went to a few in the NJ area you are from, I found some on hold, I found one that was a manufacturing bussiness in an area zoned for retail but was not able to find one that went thru all of the way. I have not stopped looking. Please point one out that involves, Private people.. Thanks.
Sounds to me if there is one and I note most of the pins are in Organized Crime controlled areas. Wow! let's talk about garbage contracts in NYC...LOL
I don't understand how Private Companies can use Eminent Domain to achieve levels of Profit. I would beleive it was thru Cooruption and not thru legal avenues.
As I look thru the rest of the country, they are far and few in between and many states have had ZERO. I don't really see where there was NO COMPENSATION but do see where there is some pretty shady action taking place. ....
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 | SG8NUC
Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 579 g
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2006-03-17 126238
Talk about shady, in charleston SC. you have several Islands in the area. James island and johns island. There is an oak tree that is very old 800 years or so on Johns Island. This man owned it since 1950 at least. It is called the ANGLE OAK it went national in the 90's. The mayor of charleston decided he wanted the tree, to protect it. The man that owned the tree said bite me. The lawyers that we pay for with our taxes estimated that the money left at the site of the oak tree when people visited was never claimed as Income. So they sued for back taxes over a 40 year period for a zillion dollars. Yea the guy kept the money but never charged to see the tree. He started charging in order to pay for the lawsuit. Long story short, he could not keep up, the tree was stolen as a national treasure, state park status set up, all under Eminent domain. If you can not afford to hire a lawyer (they want their money up front) you are out of luck. Citys, states, federal lawyers are paid by us in order to steel privite property under the guise of Eminent domain. So I do not doubt that they got the mall under Eminent domain, they sure as hell took this tree. They had to anex the whole Island in order to do it. Nothing but tramps and theives I think I may have voted for some of them. Go figure. ....
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| wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676
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2006-03-17 126242
call 1-800-Bill-oreilly
Maybe taking some of this stuff national will put the pressure on. We had that silly ass poor excuse for a Judge who gave a child raper 90 days and Bill O'Reilly made it national and now the raper ended up with 10 years. So things can happen when the whole Nation is watching. We get so involved in ourselves that we don't even noticed a Sunset along the Interstate, it takes someone to stop and attraction attention adn the next thing you know there is bumper to bumper jams.
Attract Big Gys like 60 minutes and the what not. ....
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 | dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine
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2006-03-17 126250
First, I don't normally get involved in these intense discussions, cuz I'm not that quick on the keyboard or in the come-back category. BUT, Horse Farmer would you please enlighten me on the (Ruby Ridge) thing. Didn't the Fed's go there to execute a Firearms Violation warrant and was fired upon?
I know, this is going to start a hole new war.
David ....
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| SG8NUC
Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 579 g
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2006-03-17 126251
check out the link about ruby ridge. It gave me time to think what was this about. ....
Link:
Click Here
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| wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676
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2006-03-17 126254
He had a shotgun that was a bit too short by Fed Standards. Got his wife and kid killed for that. The ATF is a whole nother story.
Bunch of wannabe storm troopers who feel they are the only chosen ones. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2006-03-18 126262
Your description leaves out some detail that would shock any reasonable person. Suffice it to say that in this case; law enforcement was totally out of control and made a horrible disaster out of a situation that should have been resolved administratively and peacefully. ....
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| dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine
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2006-03-18 126266
SG8NUC, Thanks for the link. Looks to me like the ATF&FBI royally screwed up and Weaver sounds like A NUT.
David
....
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| wingwiper
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2006-03-18 126286
Weaver may have had beleifs that were different from you or me, but he wasn't a NUT. Maybe he was a little to overboard in some of his beleifs but that is all based on perspective.
Look up why there is a shot gun length law, find out how old that law is and do we really still have a problem with short shotguns? The point was that Weaver was on trial for what was 1 inch of barrel length? wow! people died for a inch of barrel? That made the shotgun a much shorter range and possible screwd it up ballistically. Barrel lengths are as much a part of the design as any other part. Not allowing the gas pressures to peak and stay behind the projectile for a longer period of time would cause the velocity to be far less than designed and range would be decreased big time.. so what was the problem? ATF looking for a fight? I have heard some real Horror stories about these wannabes, how they have battered doors down without warrants and roughed people up. Being an ATF agent to some of their memebers gives them an SS attitude. ....
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| DenisS
Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 367 NJ
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2006-03-20 126339
back to eminent domain..
wingwiper, you asked for specific cases:
1) Montgomery County, PA, old farmer and his children lost their farm to make way for a new golf course to be developled by a private developer.
2) Homes are being taken away from Philadelphia residents to build casinos, of all things. Now granted, that's not the cleanest area around. But, in my judgement, if it's good enough to build casino in, it should be good enough to give people their just compensation.
3) Long Branch, NJ. A World War II vet is in the process of loosing his beach front home for private condo development. The town offered the vet $300K for a house that's worth over $1Million. If that's not theft I don't know what is.
....
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| wingwiper
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2006-03-20 126344
Horse
That is HIGHLY misuse of what Emienent Domain was for, if people don't fight these Private People who slip lobby money under the table in order to get their way. Rockefeller did that in Vermont many years ago and was busted for it. But if people are too busy to take a stand with these victims of abuse and not demand investigations and fair market value, then these people will possess a newer power and it will get harder and harder to overcome with each New case that goes unchallenged.
....
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| DenisS
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2006-03-20 126347
you're right, participation is the key. but how do you deal with a certain portion of the electorate that has never heard of, let along care about the eminent domain issues? those are the folks who keep re-electing the thiefs into office on bogus promises of better government services. But, like you said, making some noise about the issue is what is needed to bring it to politician's attention. Here's hoping they'll do something about it. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2006-03-20 126356
Wingwiper, you are still not getting the crux of the issue. "Fair market value" in eminent domain cases is decided by the criminals attempting to steal the private property. "Just compensation" = TOTAL replacement cost (unless this is voluntarily waived by the owner) even "comparable market value would be better than fair market value.
I have been the victim of eminent domain twice! I can tell you that there is NO "Fair market value"! That is a pipe dream! I was told that the state representative could offer up to a max. amount and then my property would be condemned. I did a market analysis study of properties sold and condemned by the state and discovered that businesses and "politically well connected individuals" were being offered outrageous amounts of money FAR beyond what the property was actually worth.
When presented with this market analysis study and a letter to the govenor's office; the state,s offer for the property they were stealing from me at gun point suddenly and mysteriously increased by about %500. Still not what the property they were stealing was worth and it destroyed the value of the property with respect to our enjoyment of it so we sold it (took over a year to find a buyer and we had to take a significant hit in the selling price) and moved (at our own expense). We should have been paid quadruple the amount we received. Understanding how the system works, we realized that we had better take the last best offer or chance going to court and spending thousands on a potentially endless process and a corrupt and questionable outcome.
This type of abuse of power will eventually push our society back to what I call the 3 box system of justice and governance.
Box #1 = The ballot box
should justice or a constitutional decision be arrived at:
Box #2 = The jury box in which we hopefully can arrive at a just and constitutional decision.
should this step fail:
Box #3 = The cartridge box; which unfortunatedly we are beginning to see more and more instances of. ....
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| DenisS
Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 367 NJ
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2006-03-20 126357
I love the three-box system. ....
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| wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 676
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2006-03-20 126359
Chief
I fully understand the point.
Go to this website and read it, it is short and will speak exactly of what th etopic is here and what can and IS being done.
http://www.cato.org/events/020514pf.html ....
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| wingwiper
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2006-03-20 126360
Chief and Horse
One only needs to do a Google on Eminent Domain and the results are staggering.
Here is one from the Christian Scince Monitor. http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0509/p01s03-ussc.html
The point I am making and the point I seem to be reading in site after site is simply, the PEOPLE need to Unite and make a stand and draw attention to these abuses. If everyone just sits around and allows it to happen, it will become the NORMAL and become deeply rooted and harder to overcome later.
....
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| SG8NUC
Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 579 g
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2006-03-20 126377
It has already become normal. By the time the average person completes the fight for his property in court you have to sell the property in order to pay for the cost of the lawyers. That is why the cartridge box is all that is left. Taxes pay for the government lawyers. You have to have deep pockets and plenty of time. ....
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