Go BottomFord Chevy Dodge vs Subaru
 | shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin 
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2005-03-25 108713
I just spent a few days fishing in the mountains around Bozeman MT. We were 15 miles up on an unplowed road. There was quite a bit of snow on the ground and gained 3-4 inches each day. Our F150 4WD and the big Chevys and Dodges had all they could do to get through some spots especially after a fresh snow. What irritated us was the number of Subarus that would come up there to spend the day. They would drive everywhere we could and didn't seem to spin a tire. It seemed we would constantly be laughing, "There goes another bunch of yuppies in one of those damn Subarus!"
Is it the all wheel drive that makes them so good in the snow? They don't have a huge amount of ground clearance. I have to admit, they really impressed me.
Dave
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 | kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 360 Shepherdstown, WV 
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2005-03-25 108716
I'm not sure what type of AWD they have, but I know the AWD in my Explorer isn't as good as a true 4 wheel drive.
It could be they don't have the torque to spin the wheels and I would imagine the newer AWD's are more sophisticated with computers controlling switching the power.
That was one thing that was hard to do when I got my AWD explorer compared to my old Bronco II 4 wheel drive. In the Explorer when you start to notice wheel spin you don't let off like you do in a 4 wheel drive, you just keep the pedal steady and the computer searches the 4 wheels for traction. Just my observation. I like the new Expeditions that have 4 wheel hi, 4 wheel low, AWD, and 2 wheel drive depending on the condition. ....
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 | yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan 
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2005-03-25 108717
I agree with Kubotaguy about AWD in Ford Explorers. The big trucks have lots more weight than the little ones, the new F150's aren't as high as they used to be. A big truck traditionally has a wider tire that must push and compact the snow causing more drag.
Large diameter and skinny tires with aggressive treads are the best as well as several hundred pounds of sand in the box. ....
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 | 44trxfun
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 110 western NY
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2005-03-25 108718
It must be the all wheel drive. I had a '92 Subie for many years (5 of them in the mountains of Idaho)and never got stuck (that one was selective 4WD). We bought a '03 Outback wagon in July '03 and have over 40K miles on already. It's handled everything western NY could throw at it. It is amazing; I can go from wet to snow covered / drifted to dry conditions and never feel a change in the way that car handles. Scoff at 'em all you want, but they're fantastic all weather rigs! ....
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 | BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia 
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2005-03-25 108719
AWD systems are different by manufacturer, and I'm not sure how Subaru's works, but some systems are capable of an almost infinite torque split front to rear and side to side. I don't think any of them will do 100% to one wheel and 0% to the other wheels, but they will approach it. Most of them are comparable to having a four-wheel drive with anti-spin (posi) front and rear, with the additional advantage of a torque split front to rear.
I'm surprised the Subarus you saw were noticeably better than the 4wd trucks because of tires, though. I always thought that the all-season type tires that one usually sees on Subarus wouldn't be that good for off-roading or snow running.
Along those lines, it is amazing what a 2wd truck with posi and tire chains can do.
Bill ....
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 | cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2005-03-25 108733
To the best of my knowledge, my wife's '04 Outback does not have traction control but I believe it is available on some models. That would make a serious difference, along with anti spin differential in the front.
In reality, these cars have considerable ground clearance, more than many SUV's. If you look underneath, the pan is almost entirely flat, covered by skid plates and the drive axles are literally out of the way. The height of the vehicle is somewhat deceptive as compared to an Explorer for example. Look at the pumpkin and straight axle in the rear of that Ford and then look at the Subaru.
For this northern climate, they are the best handling vehicle we have owned. In addition, you will find windshield wiper defrosters, side window, mirror and rear window defrosters. Along with heated seats! This was included in the winter package, why don't they ALL have windshield wiper defrosters?? ....
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon 
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2005-03-25 108743
We considered an Outback for my wife, and even rented one for a weekend to try it out. She didn't like driving it (called it quirky) and there wasn't enough legroom for me so we passed. Too bad though, it would have been perfect for her given where we live. ....
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 | ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2005-03-25 108748
My daughter asked that we help her get a car in her 3rd year of college at Buffalo NY. She asked for a Subaru or Honda CRV. After driving both I bought her and myself both used Foresters. The Honda CRV was like a tin can compared to the Subaru. I really like the Forester lots. I fit all kinds of stuff (washing machines, small snow blowers) in the back and feel comfortable driving to and from work in the snow. I would definitely buy another one. ....
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| denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-03-25 108752
One of the things that makes AWD's better at times in snow or mud is the turning ability. With a diff in the transfer case, neither axle is forced to break traction. A full size locked in 4x4 makes both axles turn the same revolutions. In a turn, one axle must break traction and once that happens, you have less traction obviously. I bought a beater minivan, 95 ford aerostar AWD just because there are no cheap used japanese AWD minivans. I am always amazed at its snow ability even with just summer tires, it is as good as my pickup with 31 inch snows.
On another note, I really dislike the AWD designation. All wheel drive? How many are there? Well there is a steering wheel, a spare , and 4 touching the ground. That makes 6. How many have traction, 4 so is it not a 4 wheel drive. ....
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| cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2005-03-26 108761
I would say the reason for that particular nomenclature is that they drive "all" the time in "all" wheel drive. They are actually similar to the '78 Dodge Power Wagon I owned.If the transfer case was not locked in, an internal differential allowed slippage between the front and rear drive-shafts. The tires never chopped up, there was no excessive steering torque, it was absolutely great for all weather driving, and the system was bulletproof.
The fuel consumption on mine was 12/16, the same as my 2002 2500 with the same motor. Unfortunately, too many ignorant people complained that they could not disconnect the front axle so Dodge dropped it (along with the fact that the transfer case was more expensive). I even saw some kits that converted the truck to a conventional four wheel drive but the axle still turned, folks did not like that either.
I would buy one today if it were available in that same configuration. Well...it is sort of, just happens to be in my outback. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2005-03-26 108766
In their current TV ads Subaru calls their AWD the "Symetrical AWD". Anyone know what that term means? Frank. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-03-26 108774
I think a Symmetrical is one of those big a-rab swords,:]
Back to Suby's.... We had a 82 4wd wagon up in Alaska.. back when the drive train was simpler.
It would certainly do as alleged... go anywhere the big 4x4's would go and then some. As a matter of fact they were a sort of barometer.
In bad weather regular cars and trucks would line the highway ditches. In very,very bad weather the big iron 4 by's would auger in, but you knew you shoulda stood home when you saw the Suby's taking a dive.
Bottom line:
1)They have a relatively large footprint for their weight.
2) There are better, more flexible, all weather tires available in Suby sizes them you can get for the big dogs.
3) Our Subaru had a torquey little 4 cylinder that made 77 HP. Most of the bigger stuff had 77 horses at each wheel!
Too much power on snow and ice will get you in trouble every time.
....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2005-03-26 108776
Mark, you're a big guy. Did you actually fit into the Subaru? ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-03-26 108779
Yes, the 82 was quite comfy, we drove it all over the country.
Later on we bought a Subaru Justy and that was ridicules.
I felt like I could punch holes in the floor and just walk around with it.
I am still looking for a nice used Brat from that era.... ....
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| taheide
Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 127 Capron IL
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2005-04-21 110186
A lot of thought has gone into the drive train of a SuBaHoo. In 2WD, they are FWD, the stick models have an anti rollback system that locks the front brakes when the clutch is fully disengaged at a stop so you can start out on a hill without rolling back, they called it the hillholder. The 4WD portion is like a regular RWD car, rear diff, driveshaft, etc, but they use floating axles with CV joints, for independant rear suspension, sort of like the newer Exploders. The engines are horizontally opposed 4 or 6 cylinders, which gives the car a much lower front end appearence and greater ground clearance. It is these designs that help make the Subahoo a good snow car. A clean undercarriage, independant suspension, and in the newer ones, independant traction control. A lot of offroad racing designs have made it into their production line as well. Mazda did that with their RX7 designs. Subaru does the same thing, send a production car into the race field with modifications to their design and use it asa way of testing designs, and putting thse designs that work well into their production cars. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2005-04-21 110192
So that explains the lack of legroom in the Subaru - all their racing drivers are probably under 5' 8" :) ....
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