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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2005-02-13          106033

Today my mother and sister called to tell us to listen to CNN. On the national news was the story about some jerk who pulled out an assault weapon and started shooting at the mall we use most often. Really brings this crazy stuff home to you. I just was happy to hear that 2 store employees jumped the guy after he ran out of ammo. That's the upstate NY spirit! Thank God no one was killed. (I probably should have posted this in pointless and hostile!)

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StephenR
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2005-02-14          106045

This is the reason I never travel alone. Smith & Wesson are always there. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-02-14          106049

My fool state voted down conceal and carry two years ago! ....

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Murf
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2005-02-14          106051

The sadly ironic part of this whole story is that shootings like this were the reason cited for the rather draconian laws the government brought in requiring registration of all guns and VERY strict ownership and transportation regulations.

At the time the gun lobbyists argued, apparently very correctly, that if criminals were proposing to use firearms in the commission of a crime, it was highly unlikely they would be concerned about violating gun control laws as well.

The only justification the government could offer was that if there were less guns around there would be less available to the criminals to use.

The legislators apparently figured that nobody would import guns from the U.S., just like nobody imports drugs, booze, smokes or illegal immigrants either, right? LOL.

Best of luck. ....

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AnnBrush
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2005-02-14          106052

Could someone explain how being able to carry concealed weapons would have prevented the Mall shooting? ....

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Chief
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2005-02-14          106055

I am not sure anything could or would have prevented this but for starters someone with a gun could have put this sick individual to sleep before he was able to do as much damage as he did. Could have saved the tax payers a LOT of money in legal and confinement costs.

One small but VERY important point I would like to clarify. To my knowledge this sicko did NOT use an "assault weapon" to shoot up the mall. Any assault weapon is a selectable fire fully automatic (machine gun) firearm which is already controlled under Title II of the National Firearms Act NFA.

The most important issue I would like to point out here is the issue is most certainly NOT the weapon used.............it is the nut that's pulling the trigger. ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-02-14          106056

"...for starters someone with a gun could have put this sick individual to sleep before he was able to do as much damage as he did."

Instant rehabilitation. ....

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Murf
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2005-02-14          106064

All the news reports of the incident I read or heard called the weapon a "assault-style rifle".

I prefer to think of vigilante-style retribution as the only type of justice where the chances of re-offending are slim to none.

Mind you, I was also raised to think that 'gun control' only means hitting what you aim at.......

Best of luck. ....

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StephenR
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2005-02-14          106067

Ann,
Carrying a spare tire won't prevent a flat. But it's good to know you have one with you. ....

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AV8R
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2005-02-14          106073

Ann, think about this scenario. At the age of 18, every citizen is mandated to take a gun safety course, and given a concealable firearm which they must carry. Will Joe-Crack-Addict pull a gun any more on an unsuspecting citizen?

No more gun crime.

Broken: That was a joke, wasn't it? The citizens of WI supported the legislation overwhelmingly, as did the legislature, the only non-supporters were the politician Sheriffs. Even the real cops, the beat cops on the street were behind the legislation. Doyle vetoes it. Our Governor needs to go, period. ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-02-14          106080

Here's a recent story from CNN where a couple of armed robbers were instantly rehabilitated by a sweet old lady.

"I just started shooting," said Gloria Turner, 56. "I was trying to blow his brains out is what I was trying to do."

....


Link:   Georgia store shooting

 
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dsg
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2005-02-14          106088

I firmly believe in the 2nd amendment, but we don't need every untrained tom, dick & Dirty harry pulling a gun out of their jacket in situations such as this thinking they can control it, "just imagine being in that scenario" .

David ....

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Chief
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2005-02-14          106091

Murf, StephenR, and my Cummins Brother AV8R, truly men after my own heart! Stephen, I got one HUGE laugh out the spare tire analogy! However, a VERY true and accurate one.

I have undergone the concieled carry training and requirements in my state. I carry everywhere I go. The concieled carry permit does NOT give you the authority to make a law enforcement intervention. Let me be VERY clear on this. In most states that allow concieled carry; you may use lethal force IF you or someone around you is in "JEOPARDY" (this is a key legal word and condition) and imminent danger of being seriously harmed. In some, states you have a duty to retreat if able to do so. TN does not require this but does the rest of the above. Bottom line, let it pass, walk away, run away, do what you have to in order to get away from the threat. IF unable to do so and you are in jeopardy and imminent danger or serious harm......then you can fire. Otherwise you could be prosecuted and in any case expect to get sued. But it is better to get sued and still be breathing. The old addage of " better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2005-02-14          106101

My wife and I both have concealed carry permits from Ulster county (where the shooting occured). In fact that is the only type of permit they grant because they don't want people openly carrying pistols. After this event my wife wondered whether she should return to carrying her gun. I recommended she NOT carry the gun.

We once had neighbors across the street who were getting divorced. They hired private investigators to monitor each other. One guy sat outside their house at night in his car watching everything going on. It angered my wife and one night my daughter came home crying (she was about 13 years old) because she got scared when walking home when she saw the PI and my wife lost her temper. My wife went out in the road - held a gun to the private investigator's head and told him to get the f*** out of there. This guy peeled out and took off the road like a bat out of hell.

I thought that was it that night, my life was over, and that I would be visiting my wife in prison. I now recommend she not carry because she is volatile. But the amazing thing is she went to the police station immediately afterward, told them what she had done, and they laughed! As long as a woman does it - it doesn't matter. If it was me I would have been put in jail!

You can see my wife on the tractor in my pics. She is the crazy blonde that I married. But with a gun? I don't know for sure. :) ....

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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2005-02-14          106106

Someone still needs to label their pictures, come on stop procrastinating. As for the permit, my wife and I both have one. Hers mainly in case an instance arises that she may want a gun or if we are out together and I leave it in her car. I don't want any "well the car is registered to her, she is going to jail." I almost always carry. PA is lenient, maybe too easy (I only say this since most states won't recipricate with us and they do with another state). Any citizen of US can get a PA permit if they qualify. Vermont is great. If you want to carry go ahead, no permit required. Florida seems to be the best right now. Any US citizen can get a Florida permit (through the mail) if they qualify, and I think the number of states that recognize Florida permits is in the high teens. Including PA and DE my close neighbor. I have the Florida application pack but have not opened it yet. I do know it requires fingerprints where PA does not. ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2005-02-15          106134

I am sure everyone on this board is a responsible person and has high respect for the lives of others. These personal attributes are also related to socio-economic status. We are all (most of us) tractor owning, land owning folk, that makes us different from the folks eaking out a living in the city slums. Some of these folks value life differently to us. Arm these folk and you have a recepie for carnage. Pity law enforcement having to deal with neighborhoods where every individual is packing and no one has respect for the value of life. There would be numerous instances where everyday disagreements would be settled with guns. Put yourself in their shoes and decide if you want everyone in the neighbourhood carrying guns. Imagine the violence, it's a parents worst nightmare. Speak to the mothers in these neighbourhoods, they all say the same thing: Please help us get rid of the guns, they are killing our children. It's not the people on this forum I worry about, its everyone else. More guns = more violence, but is it OK if its not my neighbourhood?

The US tried this social experiment back in the 1800's, the so called western era. What most folk don't realize is that it was a relativley short lived period (about 25 years). It was short lived because society could not tolerate the loss of life associated with everyday individuals blasting one another away over all manner of disputes. The rule of law and legal justice as we know it developed.

Also beware of retribution - its a very poor substitute for justice. Sooner or later those seeking retribution wind up as victims of retribution themselves - ask the Hatfields and McCoys (sp?). ....

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AnnBrush
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2005-02-15          106135

Is it possible that if the PI (refered to in Ncrunch32's post) had a partner in a different vehicle across the road and he had a gun, he would have had reasonable grounds to fire at Ncrunch's wife (assumption that his partner was in mortal jeapoardy)? Ncrunch looses his best friend over a incident that started off with their daughter coming in crying. ....

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Chief
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2005-02-15          106136

Ann, these city people as well as others of the socio-economic status you were referring to ARE already armed. The jails are full. The courts are full. A policeman on every corner is not possible, nor would I want that if it were. That is why many folks are arming themselves. ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-02-15          106137

"the city slums. Some of these folks value life differently to us."

Ann, I wonder if we should judge ourselves by society's lowest common denominator. If a group of people put little or no value on life should that mean I should factor that in as part of the norm? I don't think so. I don't always feel the need to carry a weapon myself but I support almost anyone's right to carry if they feel the need.

Not long ago we listened to daily reports of thousands of rapes and murders in the former Yugoslavia. Families were at the mercy of the armed thugs in power. At the same time we were importing hundreds of thousands of Yugoslavian 8mm and 7.62mm rifles. I couldn't help thinking that a family who possessed one of these rifles could have saved their own lives, possibly their country.
David ....

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kyvette
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2005-02-15          106139

There is an old saying: "when the government bans all weapons, only the criminals will have them". There is a lot of truth to that statement.

Also, those for banning all weapons failed to realize, "guns don't kill, people kill people". Of course the media has picked up on this by referring to firearms as deadly weapons. More people are killed by vehicles than firearms, but you never hear the term "deadly cars or deadly trucks". ....

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StephenR
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2005-02-15          106140

Whoa Ann,
Your post smacks of elitism, "We're better than them, so it's ok for us to defend ourselves but not them." Like 2HL stated, they are already armed what they lack is a respect for life.

Maybe we should talk about the social experiment that has been going on since the '50s, which takes responsibility away from people. You don't need a family, have as many kids out of wedlock and get paid for it! Don't get married, you don't need a responsible male figure in your kids life. We'll do it!

No Ann, you're trying to put a Band-Aid on a festering wound. ....

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Murf
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2005-02-15          106141

Ann, with all due respect, I do not think for a moment you are not an itelligent person, however I do not think you are looking at the 'big picture' here.

As I stated above, very strict gun regulations in Canada have done NOTHING to curb the violence involving guns.

I would use as the other end of the spectrum, as an example, Switzerland, by law, every male over the age of 18 is aurtomatically an ARMED member of the national militia. Notice I said ARMED. Their regulations are such that every memeber of the militia has and maintains a true 'military assault weapon' at their place of residence. FULL AUTO CAPABLE 7.62mm rifles. In other words every house in which a male over the age of 18 lives has at least one gun in it. They also, by European standards, have very liberal gun ownership regulations.

When was the last time you heard people speak of a mass shooting in Switzerland, or the number of gun deaths there. You don't, because it doesn't happen. Why, because the entire population is taught about it from an early age. They teach gun safety in ELEMENTARY SCHOOL to small children, who grow up with a healthy respect for them, just like hot ovens and big dogs, all of which CAN be dangerous.

This education is so effective that although Switzerland also, unfortunately, has one of the highest rates of teen suicide, almost none of these people use firearms to kill themselves. Even then they act responsibly towards guns.

We live in an open society which depends on adults within that society to live within the limits of acceptable behaviour VOLUNTARILY, unfortunately that does not always happen. We have the police, courts and prisons to deal with the violators.

Gun restriction is the top of a very slippery slope, maybe the next is alcohol, or cars, lots of people kill others by running them over. Maybe they should ban baseball, lots of people are beaten to death every year with a bat.

The bottom line from my point of view, responsibility for actions, period. It is the only thing that has a chance of working. It worked once, it can work again.

Best of luck. ....

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AnnBrush
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2005-02-15          106142

The situation in former Yogoslavia is a poor analogy, we are not in a situation of civil war. I seriously doubt that if everyone was armed with a rifle that the outcome would have been any different - that war was largly motivated by ethnic cleansing (a subject most Americans have little personal experience with).

In general its my observation that more guns = more violence, the question society has to ask itself is what level of violence are we prepared to accept. The question I ask myself is: Is the quality of my life reduced somewhat by the feeling that I need to carry a weapon with me at all times.

On a practical note, Ohio passed a concealed carry law in 2004. In the law was a provision that any premisis could put up signage that prohibited concealed weapons on their private property. Concealed weapons are not permitted on most government property (schools, govt. buildings etc). Overnight most private institutions restricted concealed weapons on their properties (the daycare where my kids go, the company where I work and most shopping malls for example). So what do you folk that carry weapons do in these instances, do you carry and then get to the door and see the sign and go back to the parking lot to drop off your gun. I guess I an wondering how you make it work for you. It seems to me that these signs are everywhere and it would make it very inconvieniant to effectively carry a gun? How do you do it? ....

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shortmagnum
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2005-02-15          106143

"we are not in a situation of civil war. "

Ann, Why is Yugoslavia a poor analogy? Or Murf's discussion of Switzerland which is the exact opposite? Call it what you will, the reason there was ethnic cleansing is that there was a portion of the populace with no power. In many of our minds, an armed populace has power over tyranny.
Dave ....

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StephenR
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2005-02-15          106144

What do you think that guy at the Kingston Mall would have done if he saw a "No Guns" sign there?

Personally, if I saw that sign, they would lose a customer. ....

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StephenR
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2005-02-15          106146

Murf,
I'm glad to see that Canada is not a lost cause as long as there are people like you there. But you might become more in the minority since some of the American Libs have theatened to move there after our Nov. elections. ....

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AnnBrush
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2005-02-15          106147

I guess one response would be to quit shopping at a mall that banned weapons, is that how most other folks would respond?

In general I find it really difficult to carry out those sort of principaled decisions on a practical everyday basis. For me its kind of analagous to shopping at Wal-Mart i dont really like the fact that they put Mom and Pop places out of business, but I really hate discovering I got screwed on an item that was half the price over the street, bottom line is I still shop at Wal-Mart. Getting on with life becomes very difficult. What do the rest of you do? ....

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DRankin
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2005-02-15          106149

"The US tried this social experiment back in the 1800's, the so called western era. What most folk don't realize is that it was a relatively short lived period (about 25 years). It was short lived because society could not tolerate the loss of life associated with everyday individuals blasting one another away over all manner of disputes."

This is one of the best examples I have ever seen of the nature of the true problem.

The statement above is passed off as true and no one questions it because we have all seen the proof. The only problem is the "proof" is a lie called a motion picture.

Most were made 100 years or more after the fact by people who were not there and got their information from what amounted to the National Enquirer of the era.

Imagine someone making a "true story" of life in America circa 1980 in the year 2220. The surviving source material consists of hours of daytime soap operas, porno flicks and lurid grocery store tabloids.

THEN..... your descendants pass judgment on you for your amoral, flat earth/saquatch beliefs and behaviors and set about passing laws and social reforms to prevent society from returning to a time that never existed in the first place.

It goes way beyond the whole gun thing.... I have met many anti-hunting types who got the foundations of their social agendas for Disney cartoons. Run Bambi, it's hunters!

We've got to do better than that.

....

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AV8R
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2005-02-15          106151

This is an interesting (and civil) debate here.

I think that to Ann's benefit she looks at the inherent "goodness" of people, and many of us look at the inherent "badness" of people. As much as I would like to see things as Ann does, I cannot. Life's experiences have taught me otherwise. I own many guns. Not one is registered, and not one ever will be.

As the saying goes, "If guns were outlawed, then, only the outlaws would have guns." I guess that would make me an outlaw, too.

"...out of my cold, dead, hands..." ....

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AnnBrush
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2005-02-15          106153

You assume that my interpertation of that era comes from the movies - not so. We do however agree that a problem IS that the motion picture industry has done an amazingly poor job of depicting what life was like back then.

Please dont assume I am anti hunting, I phesant hunt regularly (Missouri, Iowa and Nebraska) and enjoy doing so. ....

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Murf
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2005-02-15          106154

To me the gun control lobyists sound a LOT like the people who say one country should keep it's nose out of the business of it's neighbours business and politics.

I've seen the consequences of both first-hand, it's not a pretty picture. I was in Grenada in the fall of 1983, I saw the dead bodies. The bodies of people who didn't think they were in a situation of civil war either.

"In general I find it really difficult to carry out those sort of principaled decisions on a practical everyday basis."

Nobody said it was easy to do the proper thing.

Unfortunately, even with all the medical miracles we have available today, death is still a permanent condition.

Best of luck. ....

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AnnBrush
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2005-02-15          106155

Yes, AV8R, I too am enjoying the civil debate. Thankfully there is debate (and not just mud slinging). One of the large problems our modern society faces is that of "Group think" we need to solicit opinions that are different to our own, else we learn nothing.

My position on concealed weapons arises from watching news reports on murders (generally on TV - sometimes 2 or 3 a night). I keep thinking that there has to be a better way, and I am unsure that carrying guns is part of that solution. There are a few of you on this forum that were in law enforcement what are your experiences in this area if any? ....

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DRankin
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2005-02-15          106158

Ann, forgive me for leaving the impression that I was painting you with the anti-hunting brush (pun intended). That was not my intent. I was cleaning my analogy when it went off.

I am one of those retired LEO types. My experience is that the vast, vast majority of those shootings you see on TV every night have a lot more to the story than you can get from Tom, Dan or Peter in 15 seconds.

Most cases have years of domestic violence behind them or other repetitive bad behaviors and judgments.
You never hear that the cops have been separating them for years and they keep coming back together like moths to the flame until one kills the other and then commits suicide.

Then the talking heads cluck about the gun being at fault, but they never blame the kitchen knife that gets used when the gun got hocked for drugs the week before.

And when have you heard a call to ban gasoline when arson is used to kill?

What do you call it when some unwashed street dealer gets whacked after selling the wrong guy baking soda at cocaine prices for the 100th time? Is that a gun problem? Society is awash with guns and now some poor druggy is dead?

What happens when he gets run down by his antagonist with a stolen car? Now we have a car problem? Society is awash with cars? You should give up your car to make society safer? Eh?

There is one plain fact: every place that honest citizens are "allowed" to carry guns has seen a decline in violent personal crime and an increase in property crime. Criminals are dumb but they are not stupid.

If guns cause crime, then flys cause manure and fire extinguishers cause fires.


....

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StephenR
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2005-02-15          106159

Why, in your opinion, would property crime increase? ....

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DRankin
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2005-02-15          106161

There are no "brave" criminals.

They still have to make a living and they do figure out there isn't much future in robbing passers-by with a broken bottle when there is a likelihood of being confronted with a handgun and shot for their stupidity.

So they start looting parked cars and doing daylight burglaries..... after ringing the doorbell to make sure there is no one home and shoplifting, etc. ....

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paulss
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2005-02-15          106179

In Texas, after passing a background check you take a 2 day course concerning the laws and various scenarios surrounding concealed carry. You then must pass a test and qualify on the range. Every 4 years you must renew and go throught the same process except the course is one day.

As someone mentioned, those with past criminal records have not stopped carrying guns because they have been disqualified from having a concealed carry permit. What has happened in Texas, as in every other state that has enacted right to carry laws, is that violent crime has dropped. Bad guys are bullies and opportunists. If they know that someone may bloody their nose or worse, they are much more likely to not deal with that party. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-02-15          106180

If everyone boarding an airplane was given a handgun, travelers would be more polite. If you have a concealed carry permit, you must act responsibly. You also are not supposed to take the law in your own hands and only shoot if your life is in danger. Most criminals are cowards and are afraid of confrontation if they do not have the upper hand.

Back in November I witnessed a hit and run accident. Car that hit a truck, sped off and I followed. I called 911, told them of the situation, gave description of the car along with license plate number. The license plate was stolen or whatever. I followed the black gal for a number of blocks, weaving around a number of streets in the ghetto. The 911 responder told me to drop back and not follow to closely until the police arrived. They told me to be careful in case the person had a gun. Told them I have a concealed permit. They were concerned that I would shoot. I told them, I will not fire unless fired upon! I could see that the gal ahead of me and the passenger knew I was behind them. I could see the passenger had a cell phone and was talking to someone. I was following them through a maze of streets with virtually no traffic. All of a sudden a whole bunch of cars came from nowhere and I had to slow down and stop for them. That was just enough time for the gal to get away when her friends ran interference. The police came just after this happened and all of the other cars disappeared. Next time, if there is one, I'm going to be much more proactive.

For close quarters, I like my Sig 229 .40 S&W with laser sights. When I need to reach out, the S&W .357 Mag with 8 3/8 barrel is just the ticket. Never go anywhere without one of them and atleast 1 box of ammo.

Carry and conceal permits are only for people with cool heads that never flaunt the weapon or respond unnecessarily. If you shoot someone, it better be for a good reason and you will likely be sued by the family of the criminal. Only in America! eh! ....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2005-02-15          106183

Just got back from the Kingston mall. I took the day off with wife to do the taxes and pick some things up. It was business as usual at the mall, we did see a security guard at Target (next to Best Buy where the gunman entered).

I agree with AnnBrush that anything could have happened that day my wife took off after the PI. Thank God it turned out to be a crazy story - a somewhat funny story after the fact since nothing happened. There could have been a much different ending.

However, I do believe people have the right to have arms - you do have to be smart about how you use them - as most of the people on this site seem to be. We acquired our gun permits when we had a 32' boat that we used to sleep on at anchor during the summers. The Boat US organization actually recommended that people in boats be prepared to protect themselves while in boats. So it seemed to make sense then to get the permits.

....

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ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2005-02-15          106188

Denwood, I added captions to my pictures. Thanks for kicking my butt to get me to do this :) The wife is in Pic 5 - clearly not a person to toy with! Next Valentine's day will be our 25th so we are going to do something special then. She has taken me on some wild adventures! ....

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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2005-02-15          106191

Well the way I look at it is--the criminals who want to carry already are, so to make it lawfull to get a permit enables the honest people to even out the scales. I would love to know how many of those ghetto shootings were by a permited shooter. LOL I just watched a special about guns in Philly schools, and how the metal detectors have cut it down to almost none being taken. Now some kids are stashing the guns outside in bushes etc. Maybe that is what we can do in Ohio when we shop a store that doesn't allow guns. I know when I dart in and out of the state, I pull over unload and do my best to be legal by putting ammo out of reach in a different spot from the gun also in an unreachable spot, not that easy in a pickup.

Anyway they showed some of the guns that had been taken last year and by and large they were very nice pieces, only cost 20-50 bucks on the street. Obviously stolen but I read someone saying we need to get guns off the (ghetto)streets. People say it all the time but almost nobody does anything. I have seen the guns for cash and wow did the guns show up and nice ones, but they were destroyed and that costs a lot of money and I am sure not donating. Why can't I set up a booth in the slums and pay $20 bucks a working gun. Guns off the street, and back in a good persons caring hands, everyone wins.

Any one want to go in halves with me? But for the Police it is better to leave them on the streets because if I got them, I would go to jail for recieving/possessing stolen property. Never mind it would help solve the problem and the guns are already stolen and could be involved in a future crime. Sure, they could get stolen again but they are much farther from the hands of criminals than for sale on the corner. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-02-16          106232

AV8
Yes I was. I meant the state and not the state's voters.
Conceal and carry or not, I really dont give a dam. If I am in a situation that I would need a gun, I sure as heck would not want to be saying to myself, "Darn I wish I would of had the gun" As I get my head blowed off. ....

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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 194 Central Kentucky
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2005-02-17          106266

A few weeks ago in Kentucky, Lexington I believe, a couple of guys broke in a house, assaulted the wife, took what valuables they had and left. Afterwards, the man of the house graped his gun and begin firing as they drove away, hitting a neighbor's house.

This person is now in jail on wanton and endangerment charges. This was a stupid move, too many cops movies, and he probably hadn't been trained on proper use of a firearm.

I don't blame him for wanting to go after the guys who robbed him and assaulted his wife, but he mishandled the situation, and provides more fuel for the anti-gun people. ....

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NHDaveD
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 71 New Hampshire
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2005-02-18          106340

I guess training is a big part of that picture but, so is the ability to keep a cool head and to think under pressure. Why is it that many people who are "trained" and have a license to operate a motor vehicle know how to get their car out of a skid in the winter snows and others just make it worse. The same applies to many other things in life , including the use of firearms.

I've never hunted or owned a gun, haven't even fired one since I was a Boy Scout many, many years ago (make that many, many, many - its my birthday ;o) ). However, I STONGLY support the rights of law abiding citizens to do so. I told my wife that I may join the NRA if only because they are one of the few groups fighting for the rest of us to keep those rights.

When the loss of those rights get any closer I may buy some various firearms and they will be the un-registered, un-traceable type. This way when the government comes after the law abiding citizens to turn them in it won't be only the criminals that have them. Don't think that it won't happen. It already has in the USA pertaining to certain types of "assault" weapons. Even Police Officers who had them registered in their own personal collections were forced to turn them in.

Earlier discussion in this thread had some liberal psyco bable about big cities and a different way of life and how if you got rid of guns crime would go down. Well guess what - it ain't true. I grew up in a big city and I'm no murderer. I learned how to avoid trouble, how to work out my differences without shooting anyone. All that mumbo-jumbo about the poor inner city folks is just excuses - the crutch that the liberal thinking keeps giving them - the poor babies they don't know of any other way to take care of themselves.

And as far as more guns = more violence - I believe the equation is more closely like this: more guns in the criminals hands + less jail time - guns in law abiding citizens hands = more violence. There is some truth to an eye for an eye. The way to do away with bullying is to let the good guys smack the bullies up side the head. After a few times they figure out its not worth picking on the little kids anymore.

One last word. In the last several years when (I might have the countries wrong but, I don't think so) when England and Australia made their law abiding citizens turn in their previously registered legal firearms guess what happened? Home invasions rose dramatically because, after all, those smart criminals knew that the law abiding citizens, that are their usual victims, couldn't shoot them anymore!

Thanks for letting me rant and rave. It sure feels good. ....

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StephenR
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 230 New Tripoli, Pa.
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2005-02-18          106350

I would suggest you join the NRA and/or Gun Owner's of America now. The loss of those rights have not stopped, only slowed. If and when you buy (and properly learn to shoot) a gun, I'm warning you, as Zel Miller puts it, "I have more guns than I need, but not as many as I want." is a true statement. ;^) ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2005-02-18          106358

NHDaveD, I second StephenR's reply. I am a Benefactor Life Member of the NRA and have been a member for over 25 years. The NRA does a LOT of very important political lobbying to protect our 2nd, 4th, and 5th ammendment rights not to mention offer some very good benefits in addition to their monthing magazines. They offer a very reasonably priced excess liabiltity insurance for hunting AND self defense. The NRA also works very hard to protect hunting in general. I would urge you to join up now. We need all of the supporters we can muster. ....

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NHDaveD
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 71 New Hampshire
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2005-02-18          106362

StephenR and 2ndHandLion thanks - I'll definately look into it. ....

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jdcman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 103 washington
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2005-02-19          106460

While we're on this social - civil debate thing, one of my pet gripes is with these folks who make the claim that there's something sacred about the human life form and that humans are some how more entitled / deserving to an existence above all other life forms. Just think about this stupid claim for a while.

Things could be made very simple if folks would just honor the simple rule, "if it doesn't belong to you don't screw with it". That's what I was taught when I was a kid. If you do screw with it there's consequences!

The world population is about 7*10^9, the US is about 300*10^6, (if I remember correctly) --- I'm quite sure a drop in human population of several hundred million would make for better living conditions in general. Imagine a minimum of 10 acres between neighbors. There really are just too many rats in the cage. The crux of most social problems!

Having said all that, a full out gun battle in down town NY probably wouldn't be that big a deal. Wouldn’t be enough life lost to decrease the world population substantially.


....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2005-02-20          106494

Lets all sign up to reduce world population, perhaps we could each donate 1 out of 10 family members for extermination. I guess its OK to get rid of millions if the extermnation is NIMBY (Not in my back yard). Why does that seem so familiar, oh yes the Holocast - 6 million Jews, we will never miss them. ....

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StephenR
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2005-02-20          106511

jdcman,
Uh, you're joking, right? ....

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Archdean
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Posts: 279 Oklahoma
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2005-02-20          106519

I just had the first oppurtunity to read this thread in it's entirety!!

Ann said:I am sure everyone on this board is a responsible person and has high respect for the lives of others. These personal attributes are also related to socio-economic status. We are all (most of us) tractor owning, land owning folk, that makes us different from the folks eaking out a living in the city slums. Some of these folks value life differently to us. Arm these folk and you have a recepie for carnage.

I couldn't agree more and I must say the others are right also!!
Do yourselves a favor and re read all that has been posted before this ,,, one of the best threads I have read anywhere!! ....

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jdcman
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Posts: 103 washington
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2005-02-20          106524

Yeah in light of everything that's happening in the world I think this is one of the more interesting topics of discussion.

No I don't advocate gunfights in down town NY, nor extermination of large masses of innocent people.

I also don't believe that weapons of any sort, in of themselves are harmful --- it's people that make them harmful. I.E. it’s the application of the weapon that matters.

Another fact, when you cram too many of any type of living creatures into too small a space you can certainly expect trouble. One of the by products of over crowding is intolerance. If you look at the majority of the inflamed social situations occurring through out the world and even here in the states, at the root will be folks unwilling to compromise their position.

Very sad state of affairs.

I live in a state where you can carry concealed. Live on acreage where we are fairly isolated but I know damn well walking around with my pea shooter ain't going to fix the big picture.

I guess I'm kind of a strange bird --- early fifties, fiscally conservative and the first time in my life I've voted for a Democrat. I too believe that this country has a value system problem, but I saw the solution differently than a lot of folks.

Don't like smoke screens and being lied to. Have looked up the word bigot many times, (type it into MS sometime). Believe that the individual has the right to make decisions about their own body. Don't have several millions of dollars to invest but would like to keep what I do have. Don't like the idea of seeing high tech jobs outsourced, (any jobs for that matter). And especially don't believe that thumping the bible and waving the flag is going to fix anything.

Did I mention that I'm fiscally conservative and that I've never voted democratic before?

Anyway the nation in general seems polarized on several fronts. In reading through this thread I kind of got a sense that it's probably representative of the same distribution of folks and ideas. In fact I’ve been lurking around this site for a couple of years and have been too cheap to pay my twenty bucks --- but this thread got the best of me … maybe it was the welding thread.

Just my $.02 worth, if it’s worth that much.






....

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Archdean
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Posts: 279 Oklahoma
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2005-02-20          106526

Nicely written JDC.

Having said that, I am now lost with this quote!~
"I guess I'm kind of a strange bird --- early fifties, fiscally conservative and the first time in my life I've voted for a Democrat."

Perhaps it's the + 10 thing, apparently a lot happened in the 15 years that separate us,!!

What I am trying to say with a certain clarity is what democrat caught your fancy and where in hell did that happen and what for???
Dean

....

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jdcman
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Posts: 103 washington
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2005-02-21          106530

Well Dean,

To be honest my vote was not so much for but against.

At heart I'm more of an independent but those damn guys can't ever get beyond the dope smoking.

In reality there really isn't a two party system any more. These guys all drink from the same well and as a result very little differentiation. Really isn't much of a choice.

Personally I liked your namesake the best,(of those offered). Really liked his primal scream, but the mainstream guys just can't tolerate anybody with any passion.

The shame of it all is that I’m for personal choice, minimal gov and fiscal discipline. The traditional stuff the Reps have always claimed to be about. But I’m really turned off by what I perceive as mixing of church and state. Also I can go into a long discussion about why I personally believe going over to Iraq was absolutely the wrong action to take. I just feel for all the young folks that are over there and hope some good will eventually come of it.

If we were really dead set on taking care of biz, focus on Afghanistan and Iran were the targets that made sense.

As you know we'd been bombing the shit out of Iraq for 12 damn years, and with satellites parked overhead do you really believe Sadam could have taken a piss without us knowing?

And the other thing who's paying for all this crap? It ain't the guys with the money --- they've got tax breaks.


Dave
....

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AnnBrush
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2005-02-21          106536

JDCMan, your comments are well heard. I too have become despondent about our two parties. Neither represents my views, I have affinities and problems with and for both. I have this theory: I call it "The big boiling pot of jam theory". I shall explain. There used to be a mix of ingredients that made a republican political platform, and a different set for a democrat platform. Now they just throw whatever goes into a big pot boil it all up and call it a campaign. In the the end republican jam tastes the same as democrat jam. Each party will tell you "my jam has strawberries in it", or "mine has grapes" but in the end its just jam, and if I wanted grapes I would buy grapes not jam. Its no longer about values, its about money and the whole lot of them lie like their pants are on fire. What kind of system are we in when we have organized groups whose sole purpopse is fact checking the campaigns. It makes me sick, I have never been so disillusioned with our political process. ....

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ncrunch32
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2005-03-01          107081

I have a couple of thoughts about this two party system. First, whenever you have several parties if they are all doing their job they will converge to two parties who fight for the center. We see both parties using focus groups and surveys to find out what the average American thinks. We see here are two distinct strategies that have yielded the very close split between red and blue (electoral college perspective). There is a lot of market research at play here which spoils a lot of the fun.

Second, I believe that in politics the motivation is to win rather true belief in principles. In the end people are people and there are all these shades of gray. I was watching a show on Ben Franklin that told how originally Ben Franklin wanted to reach a compromise with the British. After he was thrashed in the House of Commons he then decided to support the revolution. Kind of makes you wonder about some of the real motivations that led to the founding of our nation.

After I get past wondering about the motivations for the founding of this nation, I wonder if where we are today in this nation would be approved by our founding fathers. I'll bet if they say some of the things going on they would want to hang a few people. They could never have envisioned many of the things we have seen.

So what is it that keeps us together as a nation? Is it our cultural flexibility? Our good work ethic and religious foundation? Our governmental system of checks and balances? Our educational institutions? Will we survive another 100 years? Or will we be like the Roman Empire?

....

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