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Ed West
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1999-10-27          9169

I just found out that the Fram PH3593A oil filter fits my Mits D2050 tractor.The dealer I bought my tractor from uses the Yanmar 119660-35150 oil filter on this model because its easier to get. But this Fram is at Wal-Mart for $2.53.Hope this helps someone.Ed

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DennisCTB
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1999-10-27          9170

Ed,I suggest you look at this previous post on the board before you go out and buy a case of those Frams, I have a bunch of them in my garage, and I am reluctant to use them after having numerous problems with them.I used to believe that filter's are all the same, and I think the majority of people feel that there is no difference between them. Problem is that its only that filter and your oil that stands between mechanical failure.After I had problems with my $2.50 Frams and saw the Cutaways I changed my mind, I''l pay 6 0 $7 and drive a ways to get them now.Not that any Company has much of a heritage today but Fram and Autolite are now owned by AlledSignal, I can tell you from the inside that Allied is simply a massive Conglomerate with no heart whatsoever in the Auto. The automotive sector of Allied has been dragging Corporate Earnings down for years, so "Cost Cutting the Product" and selling higher volumes have carried the day.Take a look at the cutaways and us know what you think Click here to see the Old thread then click on the link in the main message ....

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Kai
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1999-10-27          9171

I have found a site about oil filters which has some interesting findings. In addition there is a link to a letter written by an engineer working in the Fram oil filter factory. I think the new Purilator filter is the best you can buy for 5 to 6 dollars. I just bought a NAPA Gold #1334 for my Mitsubishi MT210D. It cross references as follows: AC Delco PF-57, Fram PH6811, Motorcraft FL-810, Purolator L14459, Wix 51334 and Honda 15400-PR3-004 ....

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Kai
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1999-10-27          9173

Well the link part did not work or I don't understand something so here is the link to the "Oil Filter Study" site. http://minimopar.simplenet.com/oilfilterstudy.html And a one and a two. ....

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bo
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1999-10-27          9178

I have been reading the material on filters with interest cuase I was/am a believer in frams. I have been using frams in all of my cars and cub cadet for over 15 years without one mechanical filter/oil related problem. A long time ago , I can't remember how long but over 10 years, I read a filter analysis done by Consumers Reports where they found fram to be topnotch. I have looked at the site that showed the cutaways and wonder if the small difference really mean a whole lot as compared to each filter's filtering ability. Certainly filtering ability is related to amount of filtering material but it also related to the size of the particulate matter the filter will allow to pass through as measured by micron sizes. I would be curious to know what kind of problems you had with your fram filters and just how could you tell if the problems were related to the filter. The only problem that I have ever had is when I left the old gasket on and spun the new filter on . The oil leak was awesome. This was my mistake. The fact that the frams of today may have been "QUALITY ENGINEERED" {better known as cheapened} is interesting and highly possible. I would surely like to see Consumers Reports or some other testing agency test filters again. As a last comment, If the oil is changed with regularity and frequency, and the filters available satisfy auto manufacturers warranttees, does it make much difference in which is used? ....

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Kai
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1999-10-28          9204

When I first looked at the web site I felt that the standard Fram filter was a inferior product, but then later on reflecting on the subject I considered that although the Fram is not a high tech filter it has been a quality product for a number of years. I'm speaking only of the standard Fram since I do not believe in adding Teflon or any other miracle to oil. I agree with your last comment. I've always believed that clean oil and clean air will lead to long engine life. ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-10-28          9213

One man's junk is another man's treasure. As with most things, its all relative to your perspective. Some people feel a great joy inside to have saved a buck today, only to waste twice that tomorrow. Or can't see spending the extra money for a quality product, but can somehow justify spending more, buying junk three times as often??? The bottom line...your life as well as your engine's life is dependent upon what you put in it, or how you maintain it. Will a junk filter work ok, sure...will it last AS LONG as one using a quality product...I doubt it. Common sense applies heavily in this case. I guess most people are crisis driven, they change "after" being faced with a crisis.Without thought of prevention. Hey...It's your money..Do as you wish:) ....

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DennisCTB
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1999-10-28          9216

Amen to that MLS.My Father in Law prides himself on re-soling old inexpensive shoes over and over again for 5 to 10 years. He has a friend who does it "cheap" for him so it really thrills him.Yet his feet always hurt him? I wonder why?We all get our pleasure in different ways!I guess if we are going to talk about this topic we would have to frame it in a context like:Best Filter Product based on Quality of Product
  • Best Filter Value
  • Most economical Filter
  • etc.....I think then we might get different answers to the question.I only mentioned the quality issue so that readers would not be confused by this post that OEM and other more expensive filters were identical to cross ref cheap filters, I think that is an important distinction. Each of us has to decide what pleases us the most. Only a little while ago I thought that these cheap filters were just loss leaders of high quality items at the big discounters, I now think that these are "formerly high quality" items now sold at low prices to match a now more "medicore" quality standard. Once again taking advantage of the consumers long standing "brand" recognition.No big deal for me as I always buy new equipment anyway. ....

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    FRED G.
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    1999-10-28          9219

    I TOOK YOUR ADVICE AND CHECKED OUT THE WEB SITE TECH2TECH.THE WRITER HAD VALADATED HIS STUDY IN ONE SENTENCE." I ADMIT THIS COMPARISON DID NOT ATTEMPT TO ACTUALLY MEASURE THE FILTERING ABILITY OF EACH FILTER."NOW I'M CONFUSED AS TO WHAT THIS SITE IS TRYING TO DEMONSTRATE. WHO HAS THE BEST FILTER BASED ON A VISUAL STUDY? I WOULD RATHER MAKE MY DECISION BASED ON THE ACTUAL FILTERING ABILITY OF THE FILTER. BE IT A $2.50 FILTER OR A $10.00 FILTER.WOULD YOU PICK YOUR WIFE THAT YOU INTEND TO SPEND THE REST OF YOUR LIFE WITH AND RAISE YOUR CHILDREN FROM A LINE-UP OF 10 FEMALES AND DECIDE ON LOOKS ALONE? LIKE mls SAID. IT'S YOUR MONEY.FRED G. ....

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    bo
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    1999-10-28          9220

    All of this discussion of oil filters and there assumed quality without any hard evidence of that quality reminds of my father in law who used to put high test gas in his car {which specified regular} in order to give it a "treat" and my Uncle who insisted that his car wouldn't run well unless he used Shell gas in it or my Aunt who insisted that her headache wouldn't get better unless she had Beyer aspirin. I readilly admit that the filters may have cheapened but no one on this board ever specifically tied engine problems to the oil filter and I doubt that you could. The one myth sold to the American consumer is that Price= Quality . This ain't necessarily so folks. Sure it is your money and you have a lot of it invested in a tractor and you should use high quality products in its maintenance, but the markups that the colors get on their component parts are obsene and you still have no assurances as to the quality of the product. If anyone can specifically tie filters to problems, and I asked before, then I would like to hear them. I too am interested in learning something that may prevent future difficulties and as I do not wish to be the one that "pay me now or pay me later" saying fits. Come on gentlemen don't tell me "I had problems with my filter" What problems and how did you correlate the two? I have been running engines of all types for over 40 years and can honestly say that I have never lost a motor to a filter. One of my cars is a 83 with well over 100000 on it , I have a I/O boat that is a 81 , my cubcadet is 78 and may other assorted chainsaw, trimming mowers and such and never, ever a oil related problem. Oh yes , a 1975 and 78 outboard motor. The absolutely most important key to longitivity is frequent oil and filter changes. I fully expect to pass on my 870 JD to my kids with at least as many hours on it as my cubcadet [1800] and still beautifully operational.. So--just what problems can be specifically tied to filters and what scientific studies show one is better then the other other then just saying that it is common sense that Price= Quality? ....

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    bo
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    1999-10-28          9221

    Duplicate Deleted ....

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    bo
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    1999-10-28          9222

    You know guys, just for kicks I punched in www.fram.com and lo and behold I got their web site. You gentlemen ought to read what they say about their filters as compared to the competative brands. I would bet that the competition would take them to court in a major law suit cause they claim that their filters are far superior to anything on the market in filtering ability. Also, the FTC would probably be very interested in the claims they make and either the FTC doesn't know what they are claiming or Fram can back up their statements with hard data. Check it out. As the old lady said " show me the beef" {old commercial,remember?} ....

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    DennisCTB
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    1999-10-28          9223

    Many years ago I enjoyed reading "Zen and the Art of MotorCycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. It's about values and quality, what is it. One thing we know is we can't scientifically create high quality writing, like Shakespeare, a BMW is a BMW because what? Why can't Hyundai make a BMW-like car. Etc.... I think we can more easily perceive quality, than we can replicate it through imitation or measurement.For anyone interested the Book is on line Part I Part II I really enjoyed it then and still think of it often. ....

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    Tim
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    1999-10-28          9224

    You may have a point, but the fact of the matter is, when these mass marketed oil filters are designed, they may be designed for a variety of applications, with the filter being the same for a gas engine as it is for a diesel engine, only with a different number on it. In the automotive field, everyone has heard of the Cummins engine in the Dodge Ram truck. Dodge/Cummins have tested the filters and only allow 3 brands to be used in their engine: MOPAR, Fleetguard, and Cummins filters. (oil filter) The reason is that other filters may not have proper filter material, and could result in the clogging of the piston cooling nozzles which can cause severe internal damage to these engines. These engines are designed to go 300,000 miles before requiring teardown. When a dealer does encounter a problem with a Cummins engine which requires replacement of the block, Dodge requires the oil filter that was on the engine to be sent back intact with the block. If it does not have one of the above listed filters on it when it comes back, they decline repairs to the dealer/customer. I am not sure if the diesels on these compacts have cooling nozzles, but I AM sure that a $6 or $7 filter is much cheaper than to pay for oil filter-related repairs down the road. For crying out loud, some of these units cost $12,000-$20,000! If a cheapie oil filter splits at the seam and locks up your motor days after you change the oil, will fram or allied give you a new engine with minimal hassle? I think I would rather have the backing from John Deere's Parts Division rather than ABC oil filter brand. ....

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    bo
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    1999-10-28          9225

    Tim, have no problem with what you said and I agree with all of it. I also would like to point out that the average car today costs about $20000 and literally millions of oil changes are done by the speedy lubes and no one has any idea what filter is used. As I said previously, in 40 years of hundreds of oil changes and dozens of engines I never lost a motor and never had a oil related problem. I never even heard of a filter splitting a seam although I suppose it could happen. All of my friends and neighbors are motor people in that they do most of their own repairs and we talk alot about engines. Not once did any one mention a filter related problem. None of this is the point though. The original discussion started out with a quality analysis and all that was said was "seems like, common sense should, cheap, looks like , etc" at no time was there any provable , testable research evidence to back up those slippery words. When asked for just what filter problems were traceble to oil/motor problems there was a strange silence. Another point that I was trying to make is that high price doesn't necessarily mean you will get a commensurate high quality. And, take this with good grace, if you think that you will the backing of John Deere Parts Division for a problem, I suggest you read the posts on "tire scrubbing" on this board. I am not defending my choice nor Fram filters and everyone to his own but some of the comments on this board about filters are not substantiated and probably can't be and there are lot of guys out there that may be quite concerned because they may be thinking that they have using the wrong filter when in fact, no one on this board has demonstrated one iota of scientific proof. Happy tractoring. May the Gods be with you. ....

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    bo
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    1999-10-28          9226

    As a general futher comment about the price/quality equation, I recently broke one of the flasher lights on my 870 and when I went to my friendly dealer he told me that the light would cost me $31 plus 8% tax. Well, for $31+ I get another light built of 100% plastic which will also break even with a small impact with a tree branch. Plastic,through and through, that, my friend , is not quality and that is an OEM part. Walmart will sell me two flashers {not the same style} for $15 There isn't any more quality in the JD light as compared to the walmart light. When the starter relay went out on my mercruiser, they want $42 plus tax for the relay. Pep boys sold me the relay with a life time warranttee for $13. and it is diode surpressed for excess voltage. You and I both know that any manufacturer would love to lock you up to using their parts specifically. Quality must be provable and not just blowing smoke about it. Regards. ....

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    bo pikas
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    1999-10-29          9227

    Tim, I'm hot tonight,the power steering cylinder on my 870 has a unimportant but aggravating drip out of the weep hole. The jd dealer wants $560 for a new cylinder, That comes out to 3% the price of the tractor and implements. When asked if it could be rebuilt the answer was no. When a hydraulic shop was asked if it could be rebuilt, they said no problem---$65. Who is snowing who? Incidently, About my previous post to you about the flasher light. I wanted to match up the jd lights so that the tractor would sorta be original and I went to every place I could think of cause I refused to be had by the dealer on principle alone. No one carried that style of light. ONe truck part dealer asked what it was from and I told him a jd tractor. He laughed and said "JD knows what they are doing" And there you have it. Throw it away and you'll always be short, use it wisely and you'll always have $20 in your jeans. More regards. ....

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    DennisCTB
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    1999-10-29          9235

    I remember some years ago there used to be a real cheap filter from "Lee". When you picked them up you could see how light weight they were compared to the Purolators next to them. Don't know that light is a bad thing, but has anybody see a Lee filter around lately. Nonethless, I think Lee helped move the filter market to Low Cost. I think Lee tapped into a market that it is very difficult to convince anyone that you have a better product, and that price is about the only driver. The advent of quick change Oil and the decline of the the hands on Home Mechanic, also spells the demise in the do it yourself market.When I was a kid I did most auto repairs myself, rebuilt engines, Carburetors, Clutches, drive train, suspension, etc.. Thirty yesars ago that was not so uncommon. Today with car leases and somewhat higher dependability (-no adjustments needed), people don't do their own stuff anymore in the numbers they used to.To make it worth your wile you have to buy the cheapest filter available, or it is cheaper to get the 17 yearold former fast food fry guy to change your oil at a quick lube while you read the paper. I do know of stories though where these kids strip the nut on your oil pan, hence I don't go there. I am just not that trusting.I have to agree with some of what Bo is saying, in fact it was my belief until recently. I don't subscribe at all to higher price equals higher quality. There is no question that when spending money the "law of diminishing returns" applies.The problems I have had with cheap filters have been with the gasket sealing (improper seating of the gasket so that it would not stay in it's recess, a filter that had two gaskets bonded together , and a filter wall collapse during removal -- years ago one of those really thin boys).These failures made me wonder if there was anything better, maybe, maybe not.While Bo asks for technical evidence, he provides none himself other that selective subjective experiences, and quoted marketing Hyperbole. Perhaps it is hard to find anything solid on this topic. ....

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    MichaelSnyder
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    1999-10-29          9236

    Having worked in the petroleum industry a few years ago, I remember seeing an article which spoke of lubrication filtration. This article relates to industrial applications, but I feel the same applies in this case. here ya go: "There are three basic filter media on the market today: depth media, pleated paper, and synthetic. The depth media filter was developed by Charles Winslow in 1929 and became the first, practical lube oil filter. During the 40's and 50's, pleated paper elements evolved as a "low cost" and smaller alternative applied to full flow lube oil and hydraulic systems. Synthetic media filters appeared in the early 70's and came out in stages: First, synthetic media was applied to filtering fire retardant fluids -- water and glycol. Later, synthetic media was used to filter standard hydraulic systems by Pall and Facet. Finally, synthetic media was applied to lube oil filtration by Donaldson in 1978 for John Deere. This was the first "multi-layer" synthetic media developed by Ken McBroom, now with Nelson Industries, Inc. The composition of the three filter media are quite different and may be used in different applications, either separately or, in some cases, together to achieve desired filtration efficiency. Depth media is a mixture of cotton and wood materials in various forms. Nelson produces approximately seven different combinations. Pleated paper is primarily cellulose fibers. In higher efficiency grades of paper filter media, synthetic fibers are added. Synthetic media is composed of glass and plastic fibers, generally supported with a metal screen. Selecting the proper media or combinations of media to solve a problem, extend oil change intervals, neutralize acids,treat inlet gas, etc. can be complex. Selecting the incorrect media for the application may cause more damage than good. Synthetic media can filter out particles less than one micron, however, the filter may be expensive and its life may be unacceptably short. Depth media, on the other hand, is inexpensive and has a very long life. Depth media will remove particles less than one micron, however, it will remove particles three microns or larger and will hold up to five times its own weight in this particulate matter. Paper filter media is inexpensive but gives medium to low filtration results and has a short service life. There are many considerations to be made prior to choosing a filter media system. You may want to consider using multiple media types to achieve a desired filtration result and keep element replacement costs low."Hey what do I know, for 6 years I filtered anything from anti-freeze, solvent,gaskets,sludge,brass,lead,iron,paper(filter media),aluminum,and benzine out of used motor/hydraulic/transmission lube oil, recycled for use in black-top furnaces. Under EPA/DER's regulations for controlled release of Heavy metals into the Atmosphere through incineration, I can tell you "there is a difference" ....

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    bo pikas
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    1999-10-29          9237

    My wife says " you old geezers need to get a life" but then what does she know? I too have rebuilt an engine or two in my time and have also crushed a filter and have double gasketed one. You and I both know that this was my fault and not the filter. You are also correct in saying that I have offered no objective evidence and I readily admit that I have none. But then again I asked you for some and got zip. We old guys have one thing going for us that the young guys do not--we made the mistakes and learned-thus achieved wisdom. I find it important to pass this on to the younger if they will listen. This board provides a service in that much of this "wisdom" is asked for and listened to. I defend nothing in the filter brands. I say back it up. Objectively, I can't. But subjectly, my personal experience counts if it was identified as such. This I did. In one of my past posts I called for an independent study by some organization such as consumer reports because none of us know for sure anything. I read all of your past posts, Webmaster, and know you to be one hell of knowlegeble guy and I have put some of your comments into practice. Asking questions and having a public debate is a way to learn and the heart of the American way. The world is changing and probably not for the better. We need to support what few young guys we got that can tell glycol from water. May the Gods be with you. ....

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    MichaelSnyder
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    1999-10-29          9240

    My post was cut off, so I've attached what was left out.Depth media, on the other hand, is inexpensive and has a very long life. Depth media will remove particles less than one micron, however, it will remove particles three microns or larger and will hold up to five times its own weight in this particulate matter. Paper filter media is inexpensive but gives medium to low filtration results and has a short service life. There are many considerations to be made prior to choosing a filter media system. You may want to consider using multiple media types to achieve a desired filtration result and keep element replacement costs low."Hey what do I know, for 6 years I filtered anything from anti-freeze, solvent,gaskets,sludge,brass,lead,iron,paper(filter media),aluminum,and benzine out of used motor/hydraulic/transmission lube oil, recycled for use in black-top furnaces. Under EPA/DER's regulations for controlled release of Heavy metals into the Atmosphere through incineration, I can tell you "there is a difference" in what & how these fluids are filtered. ....

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    MichaelSnyder
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    1999-10-29          9241

    Bo,You said you got "Zip" for a response. I've attached an unbiased, unbranded, somewhat historical article about filtration of petroleum based products. As I stated, it was written for industrial/commercial applications, but I don't think its wrong to assume the same applies in our case. If your methods work for you, and you feel they're based upon your previous experiences. I say stick with it. I also agree with your post, requesting "Proof". It is also true that that millions of cars have xyz brand oil filters from quick lubes, and work fine. On the other hand, think about the life cycle of the average car...100k-150k maybe. If thats the range you'll be working in, I agree,it hardly matters.For the guy who puts on +300K....Its a different story. I'm no expert by any means, but like you, I would like to think I've aquired a bit of experience while working in the oil reclaimation/recycling business. Our testing was no different than those "oil analysis" kits you can purchase, to send away for testing. Not that it matters or related, but EPA/DER's new regulations made it cost prohibitive for our company to purchase the "new" equipment required for bulk fluid seperation. Thus, my occupation became another page in history rather than my future. Now I'm in computers, in a "clean" office..Imagine that!BTW: I may find more articles for you.. ....

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    MichaelSnyder
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    1999-10-29          9243

    Click Here to see the writeup

    ....

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    MichaelSnyder
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    1999-10-29          9245

    I don't know if the link worked so here's the addresshttp://www.oil-tech.com/proof.htm ....

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    MichaelSnyder
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    1999-10-29          9247

    Click Here to see the writeup

    Hopefully the link works... For people who think 1000 Hours on the meter is hardly broken in.. ....

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    bo
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    1999-10-29          9248

    mls-appretiate the offer of the articles if available. The "zip" wasn't in reference to your statements but webmasters and if anything should be derived from all of these interchanges is that we as consumers have the responsibility of keeping the manufacturers honest and to use our nickels as wisely as possible. I am damn careful of my autos and equipment and if I thought or found out that a component part or product wasn't up to snuff, I would drop it like a full loader with a burst hydraulic hose.{a little bad tractor humor} Also, read your anylsis of filtration with interest and will file it in my mind as a good thing to remember. Incidently, large trucking companies do not change oil or filters until a oil analysis indicates it is required. I do not suggest we do this. These interchanges we had have been a hell of a ride haven't they? Later-Bo ....

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    kim hartshorn
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    1999-10-29          9249

    I was told something similar with my ford truck. Here In NY state the inspection does not allow any drips in order to pass. Good, but anal, mechanics refused to pass my 9 year old truck because the ps was weeping. I was told that it could be rebuilt for about $40 plus labor but that it would only last for 2 weeks. So they refused to do it. They also said the unit had to be replaced for about $500. It was very frustrating since now I had a failed inspection sticker waving at every trooper on the road.I finally just took the truck to the more friendly guy down the road and left the ps alone. What they told me was that just replacing the seals was not enough because the rod was scored and that the rod alone was not available for a rebuild.Thank goodness they dont inspect tractors in NY state.....yet :-)Kim ....

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    Randy
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    1999-10-29          9251

    Interesting reading all of this oil filter stuff. I certainly don't know all there is to know on this topic but I did work as an engineer in research and development at the leading high technology filtration company for nearly a decade. My opinion (for too many reasons to get into here, and for what it's worth) is to use the filter recommended by the engine manufacturer. ....

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    DennisCTB
    Join Date: Nov 1998
    Posts: 2707 NorthWest NJ
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    1999-10-29          9253

    Bo,You said "? I too have rebuilt an engine or two in my time and have also crushed a filter and have double gasketed one. You and I both know that this was my fault and not the filter."Just to be clear, I did not put a filter and a gasket on top of a gasket stuck on the block. This is what I experienced:
  • Filter out of the Orange Box Gasket falls on the floor.
  • Another Filter in the Orange Box two gaskets bonded together directly from the factory neither of which was held firm in the rim either. I through it in the garbage and did not install itSo while I paid about $2.50 each I wound up paying $7.50 because only one out of three was usable.I did not install the filter because the car I was putting it on has the filter in a very inaccessable area where I could not be certain that the gasket was properly seated. I guess I could have gotten some gasket cement from the Parts store ( I don't have any in the garage anymore ). It just struck me that the great deal I got when I bought a case of the $2.50 filters did not seem to be such a good value after all.Just my candid observations, I am not a chemist, or mechanical engineer so you won't get and scientific analysis from me. Each of us is different, I am More Intuitive, Judging and Pondering by nature, my style fits less than 1/10 of one percent of the population according to Myers and Briggs. So as you can see we just are not going to see eye to eye completely on this.Just for fun you ought to read the Pirsig article, I posted on the Home page for the Compact Tractor Board. ....

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    bo
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    1999-10-29          9255

    kim- I lived in N.Y. all of my life and never heared of such a thing. Lord knows I don't want to get involved in another fire storm, but, I thought the ny inspection only included tires , brakes and hoses lights and turn signals, horn and wipers and I think that's it. It used to include ball joints and front end linkage but I think that it doesn't now. Maybe, just maybe the mechanic saw Jerk written on your forehead and figured he could make some quick bucks. You did axactly what I would have done. If it is safety related then I fix it otherwise I don't want anyone telling me something is wrong and taking away my choice as to how I will spend my money. You know, I'll bet that very few people really know what the ny inspection includes. I don't have the problem you had cause my mechanic {to whom I take only basket cases or stuff I don't want to do}and I have been together for 25 years and jerking me around is something that he wouldn't even consider. Find out what the inspection includes {Dept of transportation?} and next time tell him to pound salt and call the liscensing dept. Keep them honest. Later-Bo ....

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    Larry
    Join Date: Mar 2004
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    1999-10-29          9256

    Unimportant point, but I am almost certain she said "Where's the beef?". ....

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    bo
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    1999-10-29          9257

    Webmaster- yeah, I got a car like that, have to jack it up and blindly reach in and remove the filter and have oil run down my arm. Hate it. Great running car. If I had the problems that you had, I too may have reconsidered my filter brand but sure as heck they would have taken back to the store my next trip. I think that we do see eye to eye on many things except we haven't discovered them. I too am intuitve, judging but not pondering. Aggressive and proactive is a better description. I will check out the Pirsig article and it has been truly a pleasure sparring with you and MLS. Believe me when I say I truly enjoyed and taken to heart your previous posts and let's continue to share whatever knowledge we may have with those who would listen. Later-bo ....

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    David
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    1999-10-29          9258

    Ok guys lets get back to the original post -- Will Fit Oil Filters -- The oil filter quality discussion is interesting and important but lets address the issue of will fits on grey market tractors. A will fit filter- will fit physically... Was it designed for the application ? You don't know. The important parts of the filter you can't see and can't determine the effectiveness without expensive lab tests. You can bet any manufacturer of engines has tested oil filters on their engines extensively. Think about it... if you build say 3 million engines per year and can find a filter that meets specs for .50 cents less per filter you'll use it and put 1.5 million towards the bottom line. But as a manufacturer you will be sure that your new cheaper filter will not cause your engines to fail because it doesn't take many engine failures in the field to make you savings evaporate. The manufacturers filters may cost more but they will meet specs. An example of a Will fit that will fail. The old non-tubro 6.9/7.3L IDI Navistar diesels used in Ford trucks used a pretty decent sized oil filter that was about $9.00 -$10.00 most places. The new Navistar (Powerstroke) 7.3L DI uses an oil filter that is the same diameter and mounting threads but is much longer. Difference is due to additional filtration requirements of this engine and the engine oil used to actuate the fuel injectors. This new filter is about twice the price of the old filter, and some guys figured they would save some bucks because the old sytle filters "will fit" Any Ford diesel mechanic will tell you this is a will fail situation in a period of time. Will the engine fail in a week .. no Will it fail in a year well maybe but it will fail well before it should have, had the correct parts been used. This is a perfect example of will fits that will fail. Cheap filters generally do not cause instant failures, but a much slower decline overtime that most people attribute to age. The automotive oil filters used in a diesel powered tractor are much the same. Filters designed for spark ignition engines have less strict requirements than filters used in diesel engines. Answer is use what ever you want, but manufacturers oil filters are a cheap insurance policy in my book and thats not just because I sell them. We use manufacturers oil filters in all our dealership equipment no matter whose it is. By the way I am a Case / IH tractor dealership owner and deal with these issues every day, I am also a licensed Professional Engineer and know something about failure anaylsis, I am also the ower of a fleet of trucks that all have in excess of 100K miles. One truck has 265K miles and no rebuild on a gasoline engine in fact the head has never been off, so I also know how to make equipment last. My recommendation use the Yanmar filter at least you know it was designed for diesel service. By the way Yanmar 119660-35150 lists for $5.43 in the current Yanmar price book. We have them in stock if anyone needs one. ....

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    1999-10-29          9260

    Webmaster- just read the pirsig article, major horror story- it reinforces your arguements of reflection and study and I also am that way. It also reinforces my arguements that there ain't much substitute for experience and wisdom. I also believe that axiom of "if you want it done right, do it yourself" and if I might add "know as much as you can about what has to done as possible so that you can't be had". Unfortunately, things today are very complex and most people are so busy that they frequently have to put themselves in the hands of others and hope. The only difference between a professional and an amatuer is that the pro charges. This article should be read by all on the CTB and be taken to heart. Superior post, Webmaster and thank you. Later-bo ....

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    Bill
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    1999-10-29          9268

    Bo, I have read everything that everyone has written. I agree that experience is invaluable, however, Fram is not made by the same company you used to get it from. Consumers Reports article, which I saw, was when it was it's former self. Unfortunately, experience only is invaluable if nothing else changes. My 1970 Sears walk behind lawn mower was unbelevable, gave great service for over 15 years and 6 or seven blades (can't remember). The next two (yes I stopped after two) were complete junk. Unfortunately! So my experience with the original didn't mean squat with the new ones. I have stopped using petroleum oil in favor of the synthetics. I have also stopped changing oil, infavor or analysis. And I have stopped using Fram in favor of more expensive filters. I haven't saved any money, but I don't throw away oil at the alarming rate I was, and absolutely nothing is suffering. And the analysis alerts me to any problems. Most recently to dirty injectors on my Navistar 7.3L Diesel. Would have caused more headaches later in replacing plugged injectors and still would have cuased oil related problems, even if I was changing the oil every 2500 and throwing 12 quarts of oil away. My point is times change, and I lost intrest in changing the oil so often, and found what I consider to be a better way, without any problems. I don't even get under the truck to do filter changes, just to grease the joints. That wouldn't be possible if I had stayed with Fram. (yes that is what I swore by too) My NH is gonna get the same treatment very soon. I to don't take my machines to anyone else, unless "ABSOLUTELY" need be. Sometimes the amatuer is better than the pro, but.... A good dealer stands behind his work, notice I say a good dealer, That comes with experience, but can change at the drop of a hat too. ....

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    bo
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    1999-10-30          9283

    Bill, I ain't that old! Agree that many products aren't what they used to be and have to change with the times. { You might note that this typed on a Gateway 233 laptop}. I sure as heck don't miss doing the 12000 mile once a year tune up and greasing the front end {in the venacular,it sucks}. If you kept up with all of the posts you would have noted that I didn't defend fram nor any other brand, I merely said ,prove it. The problem today is that the products are getting so complex and often unrepairable that it literally becomes impossible to evaluate quality without some sophisticated tests and equipment. I would readily give up a particular brand if evidence was available it being watered down in quality. On the other hand, it is a waste of money buying more quality then necessary. The experience I referred to was being able to critically evaluate, being skeptical as to product claims and not having sucker written on my forehead. Yep, I know motors and do just about every thing myself and believe I have been around the block once or twice. When some one tells me something is no good, they better be able to back it with some facts and boy,am I willing to learn. I got tons of cash invested in my JD870 and that's why I read this great board, there is a whole of guys out there that have experiences that I don't and they are willing to share. Incidently, Webmaster and MlS have been near the top of my list.Lots of respect for those boys and others. So. I agree with you and appretiate your thoughts . Oil anylsis, I gotta think about that one. ....

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    MichaelSnyder
    Join Date: Jun 1999
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    1999-11-01          9326

    Webmaster,Can't believe it...Just saw a "LEE" oil filter at a little Auto Store this weekend. Never heard of Lee in my life, and you just posted about em last week!! By the way, stopped in at the new fancy auto store for a V belt & a few Misc things you always "NEED" when visiting this type of store. After much computer keyboard punching, they Didn't have squat!! Went to the "little Man", he had everything. Most impressive, he simply looked at the "X" brand belt number and instantly knew the "Y" or "Z" brand cross reference number. Plus, something I never saw before in an auto store, he had every type of spin on (gas/oil) filter element canaster cut off so you could actually hold the filter element. The LEE filter "looked" like as good a quality as the upper end filters. I know FRAM has been taking a beating on the CTB, but after refreshing my memory of seeing & holding one in my hand..FRAM deserves every bit of what is said about em...I'm sorry, but all the other filters, including the no-names used metal end-caps, with a relatively thick pleated filter element. FRAM used "Cardboard" end caps with noticebly thinner filter media. Last time I checked, cardboard doesn't hold up real well when saturated in any kind of liquid.No wonder they are so "cheap"..I mean inexpensive at wallmart. ....

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    bo
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    1999-11-01          9338

    Okay, Okay, I know when I am beat. I am going to run out and buy a case of Lees. Wonder if Walmart carries them? ....

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