Go BottomCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
 | Jeffie
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 17 NJ, 07092 
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2003-09-01 63005
I like the idea of a two speed rear for my 1812. Would it be possible/practical/feasable to bolt in a creeper gear between hydro pump and differential? It would seem to me that the differential on a hydro and gear driven unit would be the same, if so, the creeper gear should be a bolt in, I would then have to shorten the drive shaft. Anyone know if this is true? Any suggestions?
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York 
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2003-09-01 63026
Anything is possible, BUT somethings are closer to impossible like this, or just why would you want to? ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Jeffie
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 17 NJ, 07092
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2003-09-01 63030
I was going to use some ground attachments, thought slower power would help. I drove a friend's Wheelhorse D200 and liked the slow speed power. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-02 63047
I thought HST's already were capable of extremely slow ground speeds at any chosen engine rpm. I'm probably missing something.
An idea discussed in a recent discussion is that many HST's have a geared range section. Gears allow a HST to produce extreme ground speeds without requiring extreme displacement ratios between the pump and hydraulic motor, which aren't very efficient. If the HST uses both a variable displacement pump and motor and there isn't a geared range section now, that may be a reason for thinking about adding an under-drive. Whether the idea is worth the trouble of adapting something or whether such an adaptation is realistic is another question. From my hotrod days, I found that simple sounding bolt-in ideas are seldom simple.
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-02 63055
The D200 Wheel Horse is a big unit and it is a gear drive unit. The CAdet has the ability to move at any ground speed you chose at any throttle position. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Jeffie
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 17 NJ, 07092
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2003-09-03 63151
The D200 I dra, there is one for sale now on eBay. I have also seen Case 446,646s that were two speed hydros. The bigger machines seem to have 2 speed hydros, I assumed for a reason. Less heat? ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-04 63176
I don't claim expertise but as noted, gears allow very fast or very slow ground speeds without requiring extreme displacement rations between the HST pump and motor. More efficiency and less heat are pretty much the same thing.
Older Japanese geared compacts such as Yanmar often come with creepers as standard equipment because use of tillers is almost universal practice and very slow ground speeds are desirable. A less extreme idea of the same thing on old IH farm tractors was called a 'torque multiplier.' The both are just under-drives. HST's achieve much the same thing by reducing the speed pedal. A factory creeper kit is still available for my Ford 1710, which is really an older Japanese compact. However, it provides new shafts and gears for the existing geared TX. I doubt that something like that would be feasible for a TX that doesn't already have a geared range TX section. Hope this helps to answer your question.
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-04 63194
I had an engineering professor who's favourite saying was "Nothing is impossible, some things just cost more than they seem to be worth." I think he was very wise...
As Art mentioned the hydro should be able to run at a VERY slow speed, and generate maximum power at that speed, based purely on the very design of a hydro-drive system.
Best of luck. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-04 63205
Thank you Murf! I could see doing it to gain a higher gear but not a lower. I've taken that model Cadet and puled 15000lb tractors into the shop just to watch customers eyes and expressions! What more should a person be able to do with 1000lbs of tractor. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Jeffie
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 17 NJ, 07092
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2003-09-04 63225
I'm glad you all talked me out of it, I thought it was something I SHOULD do, nice to know I don't HAVE to.
Instead I'll concentrate putting a loader on a Toro 327. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-09-04 63227
Yikes! ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-05 63243
The loss of efficiency I mentioned involves things like churning, piston/cylinder contact, swash plate/slipper ring contact and reciprocating motion. There are probably a bunch of other things engineers might mention. I think all these losses increase as pump or motor displacements increase.
In general, losses might be a reason to add gearing to provide low output speed but not require maximum motor displacements. Both gears and variable displacement motors provide increased torque as speed decreases so it's just a question of running a motor in a more efficient range. However, noting these things is not the same as saying that it'd be a good reason to modify this particular tractor. I doubt that efficiency is much of an issue on a small tractor.
I think that everybody who commented always said that there doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to adapt this particular tractor. It should work fine at low speeds as it is. Thanks Murf and Art. I hope the information here is interesting to some people.
Now, I guess if I can see an ATV with a hoe (and I have) then I can see a Toro with a loader. Don't think I'd want to though.
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-07 63332
Tom, prior to the compacts the garden tractors did have a few loaders installed on them. Helpless on level ground for the most part without anything in the bucket much less with something in it! Glad to see them gone as I felt bad seeing people with them. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-08 63389
Art: Why I generally speak well of dealers and I believe you are a stellar example, is that they have an interest in selling products that actually do the intended job. I imagine the garden tractor/loaders mostly came from box stores and discounters.
There seem to be little connection in such places between the customer, the job to do and what is sold. Those places ya just plunk down money, carry off the box and talk to a nice personality on a 1-800 CS line if it doesn't work.
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-08 63395
Not so Tom, They came from dealers of those makes. They can be purchased from any dealer with a contract to sell it. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-09-08 63399
A local fellow, an old farmer, has a little firewood business to supplement his farming income. I regularly get him to haul away logs from any nearby jobs we're doing.
A few years back his old loader, an ancient Allis Chalmers with a trip loader, died, it was beyond repair. He came to me and asked if I could design a loader for his little Case 446 Hydro. Being always up for a challenge, no matter how hair-brained, I said I would see what I could come up with.
I designed a loader which actually had two sets of loader arms, one ending in a set of forks, the other ending in a set of wheels. The hydraulics only actually spread the two sets of arms, kind of like a scissor lift for a truck box. This designs permits most of the weight to be carried by the wheels which are almost directly below the load. The tractor merely powers the unit, holds up the pivot point, and moves the unit around the yard.
Best of luck. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-08 63401
Murf, we have to go play sometime!!! Hang on world! I love the idea. I have berms built up with two 6" by 6" high in the rear and a landscape timber on the front and it's filled with crush-r-run. Had a nice clean Deere in trade with deck and loader. Only about 20 or so hours on it. It took total removal of the deck to install the loader and vis-versa. It had a lot of weights to be added on the back when the loader was installed for ballast. It would not back up that for nothing even with an empty bucket. I've not sold a combo like that in, in, 25 years or so goes back to a 149 cadet. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-09 63427
Now that's an interesting idea. It couldn't take stuff on and off trailers or dump over holes but it sure would take load off the tractor frame. I guess the boom arms float. I could do something similar for my 3ph forklift. It will sure lift more than I'm willing to move around.
Art: I don't mind being wrong on the specifics in this case. I think I had the spirit of the thing in the right place. I sure hope dealers who sold baby loaders for garden tractors told their customers just how little they could expect. ....
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Add PhotoCub Cadet Hydro with creeper gear is it possible
| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-09-09 63431
Tom, you always do your best to help people out. There are always times when things get out of hand. It might be do to inexperience or just a salesperson selling what the customer wants. The fellow who bought the one for the 149 cadet still uses it but he has two tractors now as he's to ld to change it back and forth for himself at this time but he still talks of the snow piles he's made. ....
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