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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2003-01-05          46978


I'm stil using an old Lincoln 180 amp that I bought new in the early 60's. Folks tell me I'd like a wire welder better. Why are they better? I don't need anything more heavy duty than I now have, so what would I need to spend to get a welder of the size. On our heavy equipment I have a pro do the welding rather than me mess it up, so I only do the simpler lighter duty things. Any ideas, thanks.



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DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2003-01-05          46980


I bought a wire welder last year. Since then my Lincoln 225 has been collecting dust. It is easy to get a beautiful weld in any position with a mig. It is easy to weld thin metal to thick. I even use it for exhaust work instead of gas welding. No problem welding up exhaust tubing. You can also weld aluminum with the right attachment. We bought a decent sized 220V Miller, but many people are happy with the smaller units if the short duty cycle and thickness limitations don't bother you. ....


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BudG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15
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2003-01-05          46982


hardwood,
I bought a 180 amp Lincoln welder in 1956 to weld pipe for well casing. The welder goes from 20 amps to 180 amps, and stops any place in between. Not 5 amp increments like some of the newer welders. The pointer goes from the left side of the welder, all the way across the back to the right side. It's made with copper wire, not aluminum. I bought a 220 volt---170 amp mig welder,and can't get used to it. Made quite a few things since I got the mig, but always go back to the stick welder. Never made a thing with it. I guess that's something to set in the way.
Bud ....


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DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2003-01-05          46989


Bud, my dad did the same thing. He had a real good quality older stick welder then went to a mig. The mig he had gave him fits as the wire feed did not always work right. He also likes to weld outside and if there is any wind the shielding gas would blow away and he would get a bad weld. he finally sold it and went back to stick...only to later by a nice Miller mig that he now uses with flux core wire. Works well for him.

We bought a Miller 210 and use it with CO2/Argon and we just love it. You do have to prep the metal better as it doesn't lile to weld through rust and dirt, but it is worth it in my opinion. Chipping slag is a thing of the past. The 210 has a good duty cycle, so I am not waiting for it to cool, even building a bigger project such as a trailer.

I do think it is best to learn with a stick, and to get good at it. Going right for a MIG is skipping a step. ....


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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2003-01-05          47002


Hardwood,
From my research:
Good things about wire-feed welders including MIGs:
1. Fast - no stopping to change rods
2. Clean - no or minimal slag
3. Easy to use, especially with sheet metal.

Bad:
1. Insufficient penetration for thicker metals (3/16" and up) unless you have a heavy duty ($) MIG.
2. If you intend to weld aluminum, can be problems with the aluminum wire feeding through the cable liner unless you have a spool gun ($).
3. A good brand name MIG welder of about 175 amp capacity would run you around $600 or more.

Bill ....


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marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2003-01-05          47005


Nothing can take the place of either when you have the right job. A MIG will make you a lazy stick welder. Most MIG only users have a hard time learning stick. You cannot use MIG for poor fit up and is hard to use for repair situations. For fabrication and speed and prettiness and indoors a MIG is great. I have seen a few good, experienced stick welders out weld MIG in appearance and come close in speed using a fast lay down rod like a 7014. Wire is hard to change when you need to change hardess or type of filler metal required for the job. A stick is simple: release and shove another in. ....


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DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2003-01-06          47012


Bill and Mark make very good and accurate points. We have a spool gun for aluminum, and an extra tank as it takes pure argon. Our unit welds 3/8" very nicely, but the whole package with spool gun, tanks, extra wire and tips etc, was nearly $2K.

I guess the real inexpensive 110 units are super for sheet metal and light stuff, but most implement fabricating goes beyond it's capabilities.

It's nice to have both a stick and a MIG, but that gets expensive.

We picked up a Plasma Cutter this year. If you don't have one, you need one! ....


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2003-01-06          47013


Thanks guys for all the info on wire welders. I think I'll keep the old Lincoln and stay on the lookout for a good brand 175 amp mig. There is a tool truck that comes by the shop a couple times a year and he sometimes has trade ins that would likely be more than adequate for my needs. I've watched the guy who does our heavy welding use a plasma cutter, that's a neat tool. It's been our experience in the furniture plant that the higher end equipment (Powermatic, Delta, Millwalke, etc.) are the cheapest in the long run, with regular matinence they seem to run forever, plus they will hold accurate settings no matter how many repeat cuts you make. Thanks again for your input. ....


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marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2003-01-06          47024


If you settle on a MIG, get one that operates around 28 volts. This is enough to Spray arc. It is like turbo charging your welding ability. It makes excellent welds and is very smooth and hot for fusing together the thick stuff. ....


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turbo870
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2003-01-10          47325


Mig is the only way to go once you know how and make sure you get a big enough one. If It can't penetrate the metal then there is no purpose. I had an important weld break on some 1/4" steel because the little 90amp Mig didn't penetrate enough so I had to go back to the Ol' sticker and redo it with a little more power 230amps. A 175AMP Mig should do 1/4 no problem. The MILLERMATIC 175 is a $upreme unit. Remember, you get what you pay for. ....


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DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2003-01-10          47326


marklugo, can you explain the spray arc process? ....


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marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2003-01-11          47347


Let's see, its been a while since I have used MIG. I'll explain the process of what happens first then the how to.

The process is very smooth. There is no breaking of arc. It is a steady stream of globules of metal from the welding tip to the metal. The wire does not "push" into the metal. It melts before contact. The sound is less crackle and more hiss. The effect is an extremely smooth weld surface and complete fusion of metal.

It requires generally a welder capable of 28 volts operation. The welder is also required to exceed 175 amps of operation. "Spray transfer" begins around the 185 amp range. To do this, it helps for the first time to be close to the controls or have a second person to adjust controls while in operation. Set the MIG at 185 amps and begin to weld. Slowly increase wire feed rate until a constant, smooth sound is heard. You may need to boost amperage up around the 190 range. Each welder will be different and slightly varied on amperage range.

This is the warning. This welding is HHOTT! Move quickly and use a 10- 12 shade minimum. It is hard to show on the page but easy in person.

OH, be sure to use a mix of CO2 and argon in shield gas for real results. 100% CO2 wil not work. Pure argon is great. Satisfactory results will occur with a mix significant in Argon.
Any welding supply store such as HOLOX or Air Liquide or BOC knows what you need. ....


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DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2003-01-11          47368


I'll give the spray arc a try. I have a Miller 210 that I use co2/argon with, but I think it is 75% co2. I have an argon bottle for aluminum, so we will hook that up. Thanks for the info. ....


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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-01-15          47546


Spray arc welding is good, but he gas mix is critical. You cannot use more than about 8% CO2 with Argon for the process to work. A typical gas C25 is 25% CO2 and will not allow the transition to spray arc. Gas mixes for Spray vary, but generally use about 4% CO2 or 1% O2. You can use C8 for both spray and short welding.

Spray arc is used for high metal deposition rates. When the wire is run very fast, the heat input rate goes up. This is for welding heavy metal. The higher voltage burns off the wire before it contacts the weld area. If you use a gas with too much CO2, then the welding will be conventional short circuit and not spray.

By the way, I use a Powcon welder that I have owned for years. It will do stick, TIG, MIG, and plasma cutting in one unit. You just switch the power supply for the right kind of usage. It is not for sale. ;-)

....


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Huffy10
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2 Missouri
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2003-01-26          48218


The choice of weldoing machines depends on several things. I would have a hard time investing very much money in a nw machine when the antique Lincoln that spends most of it's time just collecting dust can be used. Having grown up with stick welders and using a TIG unit at work for the last quater century I have never felt at ease with the MIG units. I'm not bashing them but just never spent much time getting to know the process. When I weld at work it usually is a TIG (stainless steel in a food processing factory) or a stick for cast or carbon steel pipe with water or steam. I do have to admit that MIG works great on first pass pipe tie-ins that never seem to shut the flow off completely. ....


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