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Electric brakes with a tractor

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-08-26          94605


I'll be pulling around a 5000 lb. chipper with my JD 4310 tractor and I was thinking it would be good to take advantage of the electric brakes on the chipper. I don't know anything about how electric brakes work. Is there some sort of controller I could use on the tractor to activate the electric brakes on the chipper?



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Art White
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2004-08-26          94607


Ken with the brake lites on the newer tractors it's a snap! It's even easier then on a pickup truck! I know you have a lot of slippery surfaces to cross but I don't know how much of a value I'd put to the for the price of the controller. ....


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Murf
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2004-08-26          94609


Ken, there are several ways to do it.

As Art stated you can use the 'direct approach' of just using power from the brake light circuit if your machine is so equipped. The problem with this is there is no adjustment, it is either full on or nothing.

Our machines are equipped with electric brake controllers just like you would put in a pickup truck. The newer style ones use a motion-sensing technology that automatically applies the trailer brakes when it senses the trailer slowing down, they don't work very well at slow speeds though because there is little momentum involved. They do have a manual over-ride to allow you to use them manually however, this is usually what we do.

You could probably rig up a little reostat to accomplish the same thing as the brake pedal moves down it would start to give the brakes an ever increasing amount of power.

Maybe even just a flip switch as a sort of 'emergency brake' system would suffice.

Best of luck. ....


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kwschumm
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2004-08-26          94612


Thanks Art & Murf! I don't often use the tractor brakes since the HST braking works fine. But with a heavy trailer pushing me maybe I'll need to use the brakes more often. If the HST braking works adequately with the trailer maybe the brake light all-on method will be all I need. ....


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Murf
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2004-08-26          94617


I would suggest however Ken that you carefully check the circuit, if it is not capable of the current load produced by the electric brakes it might prove more exciting than you would care for.

Half way down a hill is a BAD place to discover that there is no brakes on the load behind you because the fuse blew ort the switch melted.

Since you are running a HST unit anyways you might want to install some other foot switch, like the old style high/low beam switches, which could activate the brakes with the left foot independantly of the tractors drive system. This way you could 'throw out the anchor' by using the trailers brakes while accelerating or holding speed with the tractor. We have to do this on occasion with loaded dump trailers that start to get a little to eager heading downhill behind you.

Best of luck. ....


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kwschumm
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2004-08-26          94623


Thanks again Murf. Those are good points and the idea of a foot switch is a good one. I've burnt up a few circuits in my life and now make a practice of using relays when switching this kind of stuff. ....


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-08-26          94624


Ken,
Deere sells a 7-Pin Electrical Outlet Socket Kit under part number LVB25364 for $46.00. I use a the same kind of connector plug for my trailer when I pull it with the truck. Deere's kits usually come with everything you need to hook it right up and you can buy and adaptor plug for your chipper trailer if it does not come equipped with the 7 pin plug connector. Do you think this will work? ....


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kwschumm
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2004-08-26          94626


Good info Chief! I didn't know about that kit, but I'll order the kit through JD Parts right away. If it saves me an hour or two of screwing around it will be worth it. ....


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kwschumm
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2004-08-26          94627


That part number is showing as obsolete with none in stock. I ordered it anyway to see what happens. ....


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DRankin
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2004-08-26          94629


My experience with trailers and HST's on hills is that the wheels lock up on the tractor when you let off on the HST pedal. The trailer, if it is heavy enough, just pushes the skidding tractor around.

Stepping on the brake does little at this point.

I think a surge brake on the trailer hitch is the answer along with never, never operating in 2wd with a heavy trailer in tow.

BTW, when I park my 5th wheel I rig up the tractor so it weighs about 3200# with me on it. The trailer weighs about 4000#.

If I keep it in low range + 4wd and hold the speed to a walking pace, the HST will stop/control the whole load on a slope that I cannot safely stop my pick-up on without skidding.

I think it helps that I tow/push the 5th wheel from the front of the tractor, not the rear. ....


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Chief
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2004-08-26          94641


Ken, let me know if you can't find the kit with your deal and I can get Ricky to work on it. A lot of parts are listed as obsolete but they are still in the system. The rental upgrade kit is listed as obsolete too but they still sell them.

The other thing is, look in your operator's manual. I recently had to tow my boat to the bottom of my driveway hill which is pretty steep. The boat and trailer weight at least 8,000 lbs. and probably more. I was afraid to try it with the 4410 as I feared the boat would push the tractor down the hill uncontrollably. I checked the manual and it stated that the tractor was capable of towing and braking 8,000 lbs. I decided to give it a try and I figure my emergency brake device would be dropping the FEL bucket into the ground and dig it in if worst came to worst. I put the tractor in 4WD and A range and very slowly took the boat down the hill. It handled the boat and the hill like it was not even there. Mind you I used the 3 pt. hitch trailer hitch in my profile pics and carried the trailer tongue as low to the ground as was possible. Worked out real well and saved my a BUNCH of hastle hooking up the truck to the boat. The boat trailer had surge brakes which seemed to work well in concert with the tractor. Good call on Mark's part for pointing that out. The surge brakes are usually much cheaper and MUCH easier to maintain. The issue I think you will run into with electric brakes on your tractor is......where and how will you mount and wire the brake controller???? Surge brakes would be the best and easiest route to take and use the 7 pin plug kit for brake lights if you have them. Just a few thoughts I figured I would throw out there before the CRS fades them away. ;o) ....


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kwschumm
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2004-08-26          94647


Thanks guys. That's all good information. I'd guess the 4310 with me on it weighs somewhere around 6000 lbs and the chipper is supposed to be about 5000 lbs so in that regard I'm in decent shape. I'll have to check the JD manual on towing capacity though. How do surge brakes work? If I could interface those with the electric brakes on the trailer it would be a very clean solution. ....


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plots1
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2004-08-27          94683


kwschumm, what do you have rigged on your 4310 that makes it weigh in at 6000lbs? I thought they were in the 2900 lb range. ....


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Murf
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2004-08-27          94695


Ken, surge brakes are a stand-alone hydraulic system.

The coupler (hitch) has some room for fore & aft motion designed into it, and a hydraulic master cylinder and reservoir in the rear. When the tow vehicle stops the trailer wants to keep going, this causes the coupler to compress this applies force to the master cylinder which in turn pressurises the wheel cylinders applying the brakes.

As Chief noted it is a very simple, rugged system. It is also completely 'automatic' since it works stricly by the difference in speed caused between trailer and towing vehicle. There is a lot less maintenance as a rule as compared to electric brakes.

As Plots noted, I think you're a little off in your estimation of weight, but not as much as he figured. Your machine is probably about 3k. lbs. plus another 1k. lbs. for the FEL, maybe 1.5k. lbs with your grapple in place.

My 'Bota is a similar size and it weighs a smidge under 6k. lbs. including cab and a 1k. lbs. box blade hanging off the back. I know, because the nice people in our Highways Dept. weighed on the side of the road for me recently, LOL, luckily it was a 'free' weighing session.

Best of luck. ....


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Art White
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2004-08-27          94698


Ken, I think if you try pulling your chipper with a little caution I don't think you will need to worry about it. I've taken light(no ballast) L's and pulled loaded hay wagons that are 9x18 with kicker hay in them and never had a problem moving them or stoping them even going down the road. Don't get me wrong I was cautious but never had a problem. Even did a load of straw with a RTV in medium range two wheel drive and never touched the brake petal! Check out your pickup controllers that sell for about 70 to 80 dollars, that would be about all you need as suggested but I would cheap out I believe as I think for the speeds of the tractor and the hydro transmission it shouldn't be a problem. ....


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Chief
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2004-08-27          94703


With a tractor weight around 2900 lbs. FEL est. 1,500 lbs. (with grapple), filled rear tires est. 500 lbs., I-Match (with trailer hitch) est. 75 lbs., operator 250 lbs. (sorry if I over estimated Ken!) ;o) Estimated weight of about 5225 lbs. total.

I think the surge brakes would be the way to go here. They worked just fine holding the boat back off the tractor going down hill for me. They just don't work instantaneously like electric brakes do. You also won't have to mess with a brake controller. The 7 pin plug kit should be a direct bolt on and provide break lights and turn signals. Maybe I am not up to speed on what a chipper weighs but I would think a chipper on a trailer would not weigh near 5,000 lbs. I would think more like 3,500 lbs. would be more in the neighborhood. ....


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kwschumm
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Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-08-27          94707


Thanks for the explanation everyone. It sounds like it would be a big PIA to replace the existing electric brakes with surge brakes, unless there is some easy conversion kit available somewhere.

plots1, I figured the weight like this. Tractor 2900 lbs (dry weight) + 150 lbs for fluids + 1200 lbs for loaded tires (that's what tire guy told me) + 1500 lbs for loader with grapple + 260 lbs for me (you weren't far off Chief!) which adds up to a bit more than 6000 lbs. I question the tire weight, though, and will have to research that.

Chief, according to the Bandit specs the 4-cylinder version of this chipper weighs between 4400 and 4600 lbs depending on frame size. ....


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Murf
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2004-08-27          94708


Ken, if you have a standard trailer axle beam in that thing it is remarkably easy to do the change-over.

The axle will have an industry standard sized spindle, all hubs, idler, electric or hydraulic brake style will slip on it. The coupler is standard also, probably a 3" wide tongue, the coupler also just bolts on. The hardest parts of the whole operation is running the brake lines and bleeding the system.

On the other hand, why make a bunch of work (and costs) for yourself, put a switch to a relay to 12v. to the brakes. As Art mentioned, I doubt you'll even need them. It is good insurance to have them operable though.

Best of luck. ....


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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-10-17          98557


kwschumm
I wouldnt question that weight at all. Last spring I was fiddleing with some half leaked out 8n tires and I can testify that if they would of tipped over and went to the ground I dont know if I could of got them back standing upright. Granted, I am a weak tit but they were very heavy. ....


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greg_g
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2004-10-17          98561


According to JD your OPERATING weight is 2825#, and ballast only adds ~200# to an 11.2x24, and is effectively countered by front ballast in the form of your FEL. So getting pushed downhill is a VALID concern.

There are four types of electric controllers:
-power adjustment
-inertial deceleration (vehicle)
-inertial deceleration (trailer)
-hydraulic over electric
Since your biggest worry will be control on downhill slopes, I'd recommend the inertial deceleration (vehicle) type.

Electric brakes pull ~3 amps per magnet. Assuming 2 chipper brake drums, one 8A breaker on the supply side is sufficient. Some controllers also require a fuse on the switch side.

//greg// ....


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