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What CHP told me on transporting CUT

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tetloader
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 9 between Calif and the Tetons
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2007-02-02          139473


Thought this may be helpful. I went into the CHP (Calif Hghway Patrol) and spoke with an officer about transporting my CUT and implements. I showed him (via a sketch) what I was doing and he said I was OK, and confirmed that a 4-POINT tiedown is required. This means four chains and four binders, each to the frame (or equiv) of the tractor. He also liked the idea of web straps across the loader and the LX5.

One long chain, hooked to the trailer on one side, wrapped thru the tractor (around frame or axle) and hooked to the other side of the trailer with a load binder is NOT a two point tiedown. It's a one point, so I am told. This makes sense because if you loose one of the chain points at the trailer, you loose the integrity of the whole chain.

I see some scarry stuff out on the highway, like forklifts tied down with one chain wrapped around one axle, or thru the forklift. One snafu and that lift is bouncy into someone's windsheild.





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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-02-02          139481


I'm going to respectfully suggest that the CHP officer you spoke with is slightly mis-informed.

Load safety is a good thing, but common sense, logic and physics are better.

"Cargo security" as they call it, is covered by both the FMCSA (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration) regs. (§ 393 mostly) and State laws, but in every case I've seen, the State laws either refer directly to the ICC reg. or are merely a photocopy of it. This is for uniformity. There are lots of differences, as to axle spacing, load limits, etc., but nothing that affects a CUT on a trailer behind a pickup.

What the reg's say is that the load must be "adequately and securely" bound to the trailer.

A 4 point hookup is somewhat of a wives tale. If the left side comes loose, the load will be PULLED out of position by the fact that the right side has no opposing and equalizing force.

The regulations require that enough "approved" binding devices (chains & binders or straps) be used to adequately restrain the load.

That means the "safe working load" of the binders, times the number of binders, must exceed the weight of the object so secured. Period.

I have had arguements on the side of the highway with enforcement officers about this all across North America. I have a photocopy of the FMCSA regs in each of our trucks, several times they saved our bacon.

Best of luck. ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2007-02-02          139486


The tie downs must exceed the weight of what is tied down. Does not matter if it is a small lawn tractor with one strap over the platform, or a 40,000 lb load of pipe with 6 rated straps going side to side.

The tie downs must be certified and weight rated.

On our big Milling machines 100,000+ lbs we have 8 points (4 each side) with 1/2 inch hi tensil chain and binders. It takes that many chains and binders to exceed the weight of the machine. Plus lighter chains over the elevators.

A CUT with 2 little 5,000 lb chains side to side and 2 binders is AOK. As long as the CUT is not more than 10,000 lbs. Plus you have to seperately tie dowm the bucket and anything else attached to the CUT.

The best source for correct information is the actual STATE Level Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Unit. They are the ones that set up DOT inspection stations on the interstate or other state highways. They are the same ones who will inspect the commercial vehicle after a serious or fatal accident. NEVER ask a local cop about Commercial Vehicle stuff they are so misinformed they are libel to tell you anything.

We have several encounters every season with Local Yokelles who spent a week in Commercial Vehicle classes. YUP you got it. I have NO RESPECT FOR THESE WANNABES. They are ok at regular traffic stops and protecting citizens but not Commercial Vehicle enforcement.

I have the UTMOST RESPECT for the State Level Commercial Vehicles guys who are professionals and know their stuff. I have never minded a truck inspection by these professionals. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-02-02          139493


I get so tired of trying to comply with DOT regs. I wanted to go next door to Louisiana to do bobcat work coming from Mississippi. I called the LA DOT and got four different people and four different answers. The last guy was the local level guy at the weigh station. He said "I'll tell what we don't enforce and what the law says. From there it's up to you". When everything is up for intrepretation, and then add to it selective enforcement--it makes it very stressfull to do right without feeling like the next bad move you make may be the "expensive" one. ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2007-02-02          139497


EW as Murf stated it is a federal standard. You stated the the biggest assache for trucks moving on the highways is local cops and their experience.

I'd like to agree it's local interpertation. BUT it is not. When trucks haul freight on flatbeds tied down thru various states from Texas to New York it shows the federal sdandard.

IMO the only qualified personell to inspect a secured load is the Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Unit.

Unless you pull into a weight station or lose part of a load enroute you will "mostlikely" will never get questioned. I have seen them drive by and look the load over very closely.

As I stated earlier Local Cops and many of the State Troopers basicaly do not know the correct law, they do have a basic working knowledge.

We had a truck with a level 1 inspection receive a Commercial Vehicle award sticker on truck and trailer and the same day a town clown stopped the truck demanded he follow the TC to their local inspection and put the truck out of service for brakes. State Troopers ended up involved, the Commercial Vehicle Unit also had to come and inspect the truck and reteach the town clown how to correctly measure brake adjustment. No brakes out of adjustment.

It is the same with load securing. Our company brings in the NY State Commercial Vehicle Unit along with road Troopers every couple of years for our safety/driver training. They cover securing Loads, Hazmat, Hours of service, inspections, and now the road watch program.

As these boys state 95% of your inspection is your attitude. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-02-02          139498


EW, that's why I ended my post with;

"I have had arguements on the side of the highway with enforcement officers about this all across North America. I have a photocopy of the FMCSA regs in each of our trucks, several times they saved our bacon."

If you do a google search for "Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration" and then on their site search for "Cargo Security" or else just go straigh to the regs., you are looking for Sub Section 393 and in that area.

Cut & paste it, print it, keep it in the truck, and when you get soemone hassling you pull it out, and VERY politely point out the word FEDERAL, and ask them if they have the authority to over-ride Federal law?

In most cases they read a few lines and tell you to go on down the road, but don't let them catch you again... snicker.

Best of luck.
....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-02-02          139500


It WAS the DOT that I called---who is higher than them?. But they all had their own take on the law---regardless of what it says--they all had their own ideas of what to enforce. THIS is the South. They only adhere to what they want. I'm tellin' ya I see every day!

I have never had a road-side inspection if that's what you are referring to. BUT I did get pulled over in Alambama a year ago. Keep inmind I was driving my '03 Dodge Ram pulling a 12,000 GVW trailer (which is how he got me for over 10,001 lb.) for no medical card, no vehicle inspection, no trailer inspection, no DOT numbers displayed, a tail light out on the trailer and running lite out on the trailer, and no log book. I still got the tickets but he let me go instead of staying on the shoulder for 8 hours after he learned that I was coming down from Mich. to provide hurricane relief (The FEDs had declared a Hurricane Exemption so some laws were not being enforced.) I still had to come into compliance in 15 days. BUT the kicker is that once you pull a DOT number that automatically enters you into a database that demands an "audit" where they want to know how you wipe your butt and when---including my income--which they told me is how fines are based. I'm a one-man-show, with only ONE pickup truck that's roadable now. My audit lasted 2 hours and fifteen minutes, and produced 17 pages of print. The spirit of the law is written for bigger trucks yet they paint EVERYONE with stickers on their vehicle as being under the ummbrella of these big-truck-laws. ....


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tetloader
Join Date: Jan 2007
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2007-02-03          139506


Quoting MURF: That means the "safe working load" of the binders, times the number of binders, must exceed the weight of the object so secured. Period.

I guess i would agree, ...and that god I'm not transporting commercially. But, it seems to me that common sense and adding a safety factor would dictate using more than two chains, even if the tiedown ratings well exceed the cargo weight. Shifting of a load is one thing, losing it is another. If you only got two chains and you loose one for some reason (binder pops, load shifts, chain failure, evasive manuever, whatever), the one remaining is going to do little good, especially since it will be loose quick enough.

Thanks for the replies.
....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2007-02-03          139507


tetloader you make excellent points and I agree with the what if. I think you will be plenty safe and comfortable with the extra chains and binders. There is nothing wrong with that.

Kinda like wearing two condoms. You can never be too safe with some of the equipment out there.:-)

However when I buy a chain and binder that come with certifications to their safe working loads and I pay a preminum dollar for the chains and binders I expect them to to the job. Typicall I stop after 20-30 miles recheck then check at each regular stop.

The bottom line with this thread I think is: Is the source of info knowledgable about the topic. Just because they have a badge does not make them a reliable source of info.

Where I work we learn new stuff every day, we check it to verify it. The State DOT's and the Feds propose new standards every day it seems. Proposed and law are two different things. ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2007-02-03          139508


EW I am not throwing a rock at you here. But your kind of rig and these U-haul's is exactly where the DOTs are headed. They are also headed for Mom & Pop with their 1/2 ton pick up and great big 5th wheel campers or horse trailers.

I just went out to NW corner of MN, crew cab dually diesel ford with a 5th wheel 26 ft trailer, lenght of deck. Light weight 14000 lbs.

(I do not have the exact figures here, so I may miss the correct number, I spent over a hour on the scale checking empty axles and loaded axles before I left).

The steer axle rated at 5700, drive axle at 8600 gross of truck 13000. The trailer rated at 20000, 2 axles 8 tires.

That means IF I CAN GET THE WEIGHTS RIGHT I COULD CARRY 18,000 lbs. I only needed to load 9000 lbs between the two parts I picked up.

These weights are as much a small local tractor trailer.

I did not run a log book and was prepared for the mandatory 8 hour layover if necessary. I did not intend to run a legal day driving. Even if empty I was well over the weights required to have to stop at weight stations and LUCKLY they were all closed. I would have spent lots of time if I had been stopped and had to show documents. I made sure I had, I hope, enough bail money.

....


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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2007-02-03          139521


For what it's worth this is what the Oklahoma DOT says ...

§14-105. Loads on Vehicles.
(a) No vehicle shall be driven or moved on any highway unless such vehicle is so
constructed or loaded as to prevent any of its load from dropping, sifting, leaking, blowing or
otherwise escaping therefrom, except that sand may be dropped for the purpose of securing
traction, or water or other substances may be sprinkled on a roadway in cleaning or maintaining
such roadway.
(b) No person shall operate on any highway any vehicle with any load unless said load and
any covering thereon is securely fastened so as to prevent said covering or load from becoming
loose, detached or in any manner a hazard to other users of the highway. Any vehicle loaded
with sand, cinders, or other loose material susceptible to blowing or otherwise escaping shall
have such load covered so as to prevent the blowing or escaping of said load from the vehicle.
(c) This section shall not apply to trucks loaded with livestock, poultry or agricultural
products only except baled agricultural products, provided that any such truck shall be so
constructed or loaded as to prevent such livestock or poultry from escaping therefrom.
§14-106. Coupling Devices for Towed Trailers.
Every trailer, or semitrailer, shall be equipped with a coupling device which shall be so
designed and constructed that the trailer, or semitrailer will follow substantially in the path of the
vehicle drawing it without whipping or swerving from side to side. In addition, every such trailer
or semitrailer except a semitrailer drawn by a truck-tractor type designed to draw or support the
front end of a semitrailer, shall be coupled with stay chains or cables to the vehicle by which it is
being drawn which chains or cable shall be of sufficient size and strength to prevent parting from
the drawing vehicle should the regular coupling device break or become otherwise disengaged.

....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-02-03          139523


Billy, thanks for taking the time to type that.

Like I said, how the law IS and how it's selectively ENFORCED are two different things. Here in 'sippipi I see not one in-state dump truck with a tarp. Not only that, they allow built up dirt/sand/clay to stay on surfaces other than inside of the bed like on top of the tailgate, on top of bed rails, on the hitch, on the bumper, etc. Somedays the freeways look like dirt a road with stuff falling off. Some of the guy who have been sued for breaking another motorist's window put decals on the truck to "STAY BACK 300'" and "NOT RESPOSNBILE FOR BROKEN WINDSHIELDS" or "NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ROCKS THROWN UP FROM ROADWAY". Apparently these decals carry a lot of weight, as so many have them. The Lousiana DOT told me that Miss. DOT doesn't enforce the weight rating on a trailer---I've seen (and driven with) guys using a Ford Super Duty to pull a Cat 315 excavator (I believe 40 lb. worth), D4 high track dozers (MUCH bigger than a D4). Decals for their buisness on the truck doors---unheard of. And DOT numbers---what's that? Leaking engine oil and hydrulic oil adds character. Louisiana has a diffeent approach to being oveloaded weightwise: They look at the vehicle's GWVWR placard and compare it to the actual weight. If you're over, no biggie, just pay a $50 or $100 fine! Git-R-Done! ....


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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2007-02-05          139549


You think the hauling laws are trouble. Talk to some cops about driving your tractor and implements on the road. Every single one will give a different answer to any question about it. Especially in PA an Ohio where turn signals and head lights at a certain hight restriction are required. ....


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SG8NUC
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2007-02-05          139579


What about those nuts hauling logs. Crap is flying off the logs in a constant stream. All they have is one little red rag hanging off the longest log. There cannot be very much requirements on log haulers. The up right stantions are all bent out of shape. What a joke. ....


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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2007-02-06          139585


SG, it's not a joke and they aren't nuts. Just every day people trying to make a living. All that crap flying in a constant stream isn't going to hurt a thing. It certainly isn't going to knock out a windshield. That little red flag may just be the thing that saves your life. If not, it might be the last thing you see before that longest log comes through your windshield. They're subjected to laws just like anyone else. DOT is constantly checking them. ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2007-02-06          139588


SG, have to agree with you on the log trucks in this part of the world. Higher percentage in serious accidents than any other truck last report. Of course different companies have different standards at Harvey has pointed out. Rare to set DOT with log trucks being inspected here.

At same time sure do not understand the truss trucks hauling loads extending over their right side by 6 feet or more feet. Amazing...builder told me they are legal...then laws on agriculture loads are also different I have been told, never heard of a truck load of crop being weighed (other that to sell the grain). Then on top of that it seems our state has very poor laws on lights on trailers (not the semi type, rahter the homeowner version) as so many run around at night with no lights.

EW, the proper way to answer is "yes surr" "no surr". Yous sore is right surr. Or you might be better to hold your hat in hand and just nod politely. As to deciding which laws to enforce, is that not done by all who are charged to enforce laws at all levels, everywhere?

The most dangerous thing I see as to truckers here is the person who has no idea as they pull out in front of one, switches lanes in front of one to stop and such, the weight of that rig and the danger they are placing all in. ....


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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2007-02-08          139644


We are getting there. A couple of days ago a NYS Trooper, Commercial Vehicle Unit, aka: Creeper Cop, grabbed a little Ranger pick up with plywood sides loaded waaaayyy above the cab with scrap steel, matteress springs, water heaters etc. The rear bumper was less than 12" from the road.

The P/U sat in a parking area for 3 days while the owner found someone to help him reduce the weight.

Another example of the Troopers trying to make our roads safer. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-02-08          139649


Same up here Harvey. There was a big push on a few years back after some duals came off in traffic, to clamp down on big trucks not up to snuff.

After the got that issue straightened out, and got the junk either fixed or off the road, they started to look farther down the list, and rightly so.

I was speaking with one of Provinces top enforcement officers with the Provincial Police, our version of the State Troopers, at an industry trade show and he said they have told the front line officers to focus on pickups starting this year, particularly those pulling trailers, and landscapers and contractors in particular.

He said the will be focusing on safety above regulations, but wont turn a blind eye to a big violation of ANYTHING unsafe.

It's about time, if I have to play the rules, so does everyone else.

Best of luck. ....


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SG8NUC
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2007-02-12          139717


Billy,

Billy I must Disagree. If you drive a piece of crap and do not care what your paint job looks like then those chunks of pine bark should not bother you. Also they are all over the road being blown up by any auto that you are behind. Not to mention the limbs. I dont know about OK, but pulp is a big business here every 10 veichles is a logger. Whether it is the nut behind the wheel, the nut that owns the business, of the nut that will not enforce the laws they need to be held accountable for their debris. Try driving down the road and throw a paper cup out the window in front of a lawenforcement officer (it is made from trees)same a slinging bark all over the place. Why should my paint job suffer so someone else can make money. My trailor has to have tail lights, so hang a light on the end of the log. If you dont think that a pine limb will come through the windshield you need a reality check. I do agree it is not a JOKE, care to count the dents. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-02-12          139719


SG: Here! Here! You are 100% right. I mentioned these guys here putting bumper stickers on their trucks about flying rocks and broken windshields---today I saw a new cement truck with a sticker that someone tried to peel off--likley realizing a little sticker ain't gonna protect them from being sued. Come to think of I'm seeing less and less of those stickers---wonder iof the DOT is cracking down on them?? ....


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Billy
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2007-02-12          139720


SG, I guess I don't get where you're going here.

Are you wanting log trucks to tarp their load? I've followed and met more log trucks than I care or could count and no damage whatsoever. Limbs would be a different story but not a problem here. Limbs are cut off. As far as Big business, it's the same here in SE OK.

Trailer lights on a log truck? You bet
Weight limit? You bet
Height limit? You bet
Length limit? You bet
Red light or a red flag on the longest log? You bet
CDL required? You bet
DOT inspections? You bet (They set in waiting)

Tarp to cover load? Ain't gonna happen.


....


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earthwrks
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2007-02-12          139721


Billy, up until just a few years ago near Detroit I can remember seeing junk crushed car haulers with no falling-object protection. Then the DOT started cracking down on them and some came up with neat ideas to make tarping quick and easy: tall posts on the ends of the trailer have a cable strung on them on which rides a sort of wire mesh curtain--like a shower curtain. Not sure if the top wire can be lowered so that the entire curtain can be dropped or not---would make sense if that happened as it would make loading and unloading easier.

Other industries I've seen being cracked down on are landscapers and spade-type tree transplanters (esp. BIG transplanters) that are required to make a "diaper" to cover the spade and tree ball during transport.

Also, concrete trucks with chutes are having to have a similar diaper or catching device.

So that said, it's not that big of leap to see flat-bottomed (screened or otherwise) logging trailers with stays/staves and curtains.

But I'm jis' sayin' ....


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Billy
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2007-02-12          139727


EW, I can see where it would be no big deal tarping a load of logs. What I'm having trouble with is the point. Maybe I've been around it too long but I have never heard anyone gripe about bark flying off these trucks. ....


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DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2007-02-13          139734


Log trucks in my area get DOT checked and weighed by the portable scales on a regular basis just like any other type truck.
Never seen any type of special treatment.
Falling branch's and bark damaging cars has never been an issue that I have ever heard complained about or seen. ....


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kthompson
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2007-02-13          139741


Billy, SG is a 100 to 200 miles from me. The log trucks to some degree and the pulp wood trucks to a bigger degree do drop a lot of trash at times. It could be due to type of tree and or habits. Often pulp being haul can be older wood or more damaged wood with possibly more bark damage also most are short leaf (I know not leaf, rather needle) pine and possible the bark comes off easier. Certain roads have a lot of that traffic and on those roads trash from those trucks can be heavy from bark up to pieces of logs to full logs. As to the safety of the trucks they probably are better compare to a few years ago, but their driving habits are oftern worse than most other truckers. As to length of loads, on log trucks they extend far enough they will not clear on the rear when turning in some intersections. Locals know, do not run beside a log or pulp wood truck or directly behind one either. kt
....


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Billy
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2007-02-13          139742


Ken, I agree that it could be a geographical thing. Here in McCurtain County, Weyerhaeuser has a large paper mill in Valliant and a sawmill in Wright City. Huber Engineered Woods has a large OSB plant in Broken Bow. Pan Pacific Industries has a medium density fiber board plant in Broken Bow. Bibler Brothers has a large sawmill in Idabel. That's not counting the local sawmills and what's hauled out of here. I'd say 90% what's being hauled is Loblolly pine and 10% hardwood.

I'm not arguing with anyone. It just log trucks aren't a problem here. I'm not saying I haven't had vehicle damage due to big trucks. Mostly rocks thrown up by their tires and breaking a windshield or knocking a dent in the hood or fender. I don't know how anyone could eliminate that but I'd be willing to listen. Gravel trucks, in this area, is a whole different story. Some are tarped and some aren't but you can sure tell the difference ;-) ....


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kthompson
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2007-02-13          139744


Billy, just how big is your county? Sure it is not Texas? Just kidding. (Very much understand you are not arguing, never thought you were, hope you realize neither am I.) I thought we had a lot of timber here and we do but a lot of what we see now is land being cleared for houses. As to truck tires and rocks...have had my windshields cracked by them more than once. Some body here does a good job on being sure dump trucks are tarped, have no idea who's regulation but the fine is rather stiff so I was told by a driver. Not sure where SG lives but we have a lot of log and pulp wood trucks and on top of that a lot of autos so the trucks are running with the autos and if something comes loss,oh well. Here they are chipping more and more of the pulp in the field which has helped a lot. Probably most of it is chipped before being hauled. Unless they forget to close the flow through vents, then stay back. kt ....


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What CHP told me on transporting CUT

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SG8NUC
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 579 g
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2007-02-13          139747


Billy,

There is no argument, Pine bark in my grill, limbs all over the road, my eyes are not painted on. Tarp them what a concept. Do something. Why do they tarp dump trucks? I drive 30 miles to work there are pine trees planted on both sides of the roads in neat little rows. That is alot of trees, and a lot of hauling. Just want them to clean up their act. Be responsible!!!!! ....


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