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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2008-11-17          157954


Need info from the experts. I just bought another 40 acres. 215 now total so I am starting to get up there with land for trail walking and such. There are trails thru this land already and I think its time to link em all together and get them in better shape. (the new 40 is connected to the other 160).
I want the trails to shed water and not pocket it. Most of the land is very high so I wont worry too much about the lower trails, not much you can do about that, water from the ridge has to go down? I would say that 180 acres is never wet and 20 are wet in rainy season.
Here are a few questions
All my questions are for a dozer, I will not spend the time with my tractor on this. I am talking about 3-4 miles of trail so I am getting a dozer hired in.
1) Is there a way to or a blade designed that will pull ground up to the center and then v it off as it goes?
2). What time of year would you do this. When it is very dry in the middle of summer or when other time is best?
30. Any other suggestions?
My bride wants to have trails that are flat,dry and very neat appearance looking. What would you seed it down with afterward considering the lack of sun that will reach this in many spots? Anything is better than nothing but something must be better than nothing LOL.
I have plenty of ideas of my own since I am into food plotting heavy, but the shea distance I need to cover is the daunting matter that makes me want to ask the folks that have actually done something like this. I dont want to get crazy with money either
thank you




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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA
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2008-11-17          157955


BA,

How wide do you want to path? A small dozer will typically have a blade 5-6 feet wide, probably about right for a woods path. I would just flag where you want the path to meander and have him blade in a path, filling in the low spots from the higher spots and when he's done roughing in that path bed, he can just tip his blade a bit and make a couple of passes and crown the path a bit if most of the area is flat. If the land has some general slope to it, I would try to build the majority of the path with a slight tip one way or the other and not mess with a crown. A good dozer operator can take a look at your ground and advise best.

I would then spread 3/4 minus crushed rock because when it settles down it locks into a nice solid path bed, where pea gravel is a pain because it is always moving around and difficult to walk on.

Place a bench every so often and enjoy it!

Brian ....


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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2008-11-18          157956


You are describing "crowning" the trails, so water flows from the higher center to the sides and off. I've not seen a blade that automatically crowns. Rather, the operator sets, say, the left side of the blade lower (1-3", depending on width), grades the left half of the trail, and comes the other way to do the other side with the same blade-set. They are used to doing this. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-11-18          157960


BA, I think you're confusing road work with trail work. Yes you can kill a fly with a nuke, but it's overkill.

All you need is a fairly flat level area to walk.

Without knowing one critical piece of information, and that is whether the trails will be going up/down, or side-slope (along the side of the hill) I can't offer much information as to slope.

The general rule of thumb though is unless there is a good reason not to, you always slope a side-slope road such that it is flat and sloping INTO the side of the hill, you always want the ditch between the road and the up-slope side. Then every so often (depending on conditions) you make either a drain, a trench full of stone that goes under the road, or a culvert. This goes a LONG way to preventing erosion.

However, in your case, you probably won't have the single biggest cause of erosion, wheel tracks!! When the water runs in wheel tracks it causes a lot of erosion.

If you can just make a fairly flat, slightly sloped trail and then get a decent crop of grass growing on it you should be just fine without too much erosion.

My suggestion would be to, as Brian advised, hire a decent, skilled operator with a bit of experience at this sort of thing and set him loose. Just roughly mark where you want the trail and give him 'the reigns' and let him have some freedom to go around any bad spots he finds and so on, and you will be just fine. Just be sure to tell the operator that you want a GRASSED trail, he needs to top it with with topsoil, not scrape it all away for a road or driveway.

As for the time of year to do it, fall is good if you haven't already missed that opportunity up there. If there are any trees in the way of where you want to go, I'd say to cut them late in the winter, and start work as soon as the ground is dry enough. That will get you to the point you can seed in the spring.

Best of luck. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-11-18          157963


BA: I didn't see anywhere where you mentioned the type of top soil, sub soil and the base soil. Didn't see anything about vegetation, trees, stumps, etc. that will cause problems from every aspect of grading. Unless you have a barren tract with absolutely no issues or obstacles this could be a nightmare from every aspect---from expectations to cost and time frame. Simply running a dozer through the woods with the blade tilted (to make a crown) on one side (typically) means you should run it down the other side too. The simple act of removing a tree stump and backfilling it opens up a spot for water to lay and ground to settle--which could 2-3 years. I did land clearing down yonder where the vegetation was so dense that I couldn't maneuver my bobcat let alone a dozer--every tree or shrub pulled out has to go somewhere. Be prepared for piles of dirt mixed with debris. Once it's like that good luck pulling it out to separate and move it.

At the very least-- I would seriously consider a big bobcat on tracks with a rotary horizontal grinder or a dedicated hydro-axe (about the cost of two dozers an hour but worth it) to go through and make the initial trail with you leading or making the trail as you go on an ATV or the like. A hydro-axe will grind anything including the roots and leave a mulch mat in its path. I'd let the mulch rot over the winter and spring then see what you have as far holes, ruts etc. You might even want to harvest the wood before the hydro-axe goes through, then just have them grind the stumps. A road grader may be the ticket to rough groom the trail too. (I'll sell you mine---it has a cab too!)

Now may be the time to look into a 6 or 8' power rake which can windrow anything in its path. Just remember to remove the PTO shaft when backing up, buddy LOL ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-11-18          157971


Jeff, how long do you think it would take to run that grader up here, I need one for the airport....... ;)

Just imagine what the guys at the Ambassador Bridge would say!! LOL


Best of luck. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-11-18          157976


I don't think they'd have a oproblem with it--'cept I don't have a visa (only MC-tehehe)

20 years ago I did bring back a '60s-ear experimental airplane fuselage (sp) from your neck o' woods on a car trailer. That REALLY drew attention but was simpler than I figured it would be. (I was just doing it for a co-worker who did all the paperwork.) You being a pilot and being the same age as me and my former co-worker--you may know of him: Dan Mitchell--thin dude with sandy blonde hair who had a single engine plane on Grosse Ille Airport. He had plans to manufacture both the plane and parts, whicjh I don't believe ever happened since he went to work for Toyota of America in California. ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-11-18          157977


Oh the grader---I dunno: how fast can you drive a rollback truck? We bought two; sold the one we trucked back to a guy in Nebraska on the rollback, and the former owner drove the good one we have now for us.

I'm not sure it's heavy enough for your use if you mean for snow plowing and the mouldboard isn't all that tall either.

Ha! reminds of my way to a buddy's home in Ann Arbor. A BIG county grader fitted with a butterfly or V plow--the ones you can barely see over or around--was nose first in DEEP ditch. As I drove by (slowly of course), the operator gave me one of those looks like, "OK f---ker, just keep going" :) ....


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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2008-11-18          157978


EW, was the Rock Flat before are after you graded it?
....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-11-18          157980


Kenny: "before are after"? Assuming you type like ya tolk--I think you mean "or" not "are". LOL

The Flat Rock has been here for millions of years--it's a BIG outcropping of limestone in a river that runs through town. BTW, Flat Rock was the name given by the native americans living here. Ironically, our town has the dubious distinction as the launching-off point for bringing the natives westward, which incidentally are my ancestors.

SO to answer your question about me "grading" it...guess I'd have to give it an F. :(

I know you were trying to be a smartypants but you got a history lesson instead--today's YOUR DAY!

When's TG dinner again? I know I'm invited 'cause I'm "the turkey". Gobble gobble, pilgrim! ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-11-18          157981


Jeff, I know what you mean about the looks you get trailering the funny stuff.

Just over a year ago I went out to the Illinois / Wisconsin border to pick up another plane. It certainly raised a few eyebrows on the way home.

Best of luck.

....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-11-18          157984


Getting waaay off topic now, but I used flat-tow my Jeep around. One day I was in Buger King drive through. I drive up to the window and the older lady at the window leans out of it and says quietly as to not get the attention of the Jeep behind me,"Do you know someone is following you?" I acted surprised! And I told her I knew about it. She didn't know what to say about that. ....


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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2008-11-18          157989


My bad fella's
Yes I am mixing the two together. My bride wants the walking trails so they do not hold water so her tooties dont get wet (If so she will melt). I may of mixed two thoughts together. I have a established trail system thru the property and I need to crown, raise, clean up,,, what ever the pro's call it so my wife don't melt? I am wondering what would be the most cost effective way to achieve this and at what time of year?
The road question/thought came from my bride wanting the new house to go atop the ridge which happens to be about 1900 feet into the woods not counting the drive I already have which is around 500 foot. Road may be a heavy word for a gravel driveway.
EW,
A LS is in my near future (CEO aproved, she told me to)with cab and maybe some fuzzy dice hangin from the mirror!
If you had to do this driveway thru the woods in Northern Wis. which attachment would you buy and for which machine, the skid steer or the tractor? (or both?)
The deal is, I give her her house in the woods and I get to keep the tractor and also add the LS to my garage. Good deal eh? ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-11-18          157990


Well you're tying my hands if she's only letting you get one attachment. Gotta give me a budget. Or get the rubber-tracked version of the skid steer. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-11-19          158006


BA, you are talking about two VERY different animals here.

A trail, even one that will get the occasional truck or tractor running it, will not need any sort of base, or anything but grass on top, in fact topsoil & grass is probably about the best choice you could make for keeping it in good shape.

A driveway however, even if only designed for light cars will need some substantial prep work, including a properly drained base and suitable aggregate on top to hold the surface.

I stand by my early remarks. Get a guy who knows what he's doing with a small dozer to build your trails. If, in the future, you decide to convert some of it into a proper driveway, it will be far easier to do with the route already cleaned and leveled as a trail.

All you need for maintaining a trail system is a good box blade with a hydraulic top link on the back of a 4X4 tractor.

Best of luck. ....


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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2008-11-20          158057


Murf
I must be transparent when I am trying to talk about 2 things at one time. LOL. Yes you are right, I am talking about 2 different things.
I will try and break this into 2 subjects. Lets start with the driveway. I have an existing driveway that is around 5-6 hundred feet give or take a hundred if you count a dead end. This driveway was put in with a dozer and proper aggregate. This driveway goes to my 900sq foot cabin/small vacation home. I plan extend this driveway from my cabin and head into the woods about another 1/4 mile. This driveway will be installed with a dozer by a experianced operator. I will utilize an existing trail thru the woods but will have the dozer do what needs to be done to make it a driveway. This actually is not the gist of my question.
Thru most of my property there is existing two trac trails. They consist of mud/clay and some grass cover in spots. Just a total guess, I would say they add up to around three to four miles (probably more like 5-6 miles or more) I have not calculated the new property in full yet. It has a heck of alot of trails since it has a decent ridge running thru it. My question is about these trails. We plan to use then for light wheeler use and walking. Many of the trails are high and dry but in spots they are dips and ruts that need to be addressed before a ankle gets broke. The main problem is with my other 160 acres. This older piece of land has trails that are pretty washed out. Many is not all of them are rutted or dished. These areas hold water since my land is heavy clay. I also have a few trails that run along the bottom of a Oak tree ridge. Except for the summer, this area is usually pretty soggy and in spots a foot of water is over the top. walk 5 feet into the woods though and it is dry enough to walk. I think when the dozer came thru initially to clear the trail, he took the top material and pushed it to the sides leaving me with a perenial low spot in the middle (the trail) which holds the water instead of shedding it. (Phew) I done my best to picture this now. So, I would like to hire out the trail system initially and try to make it walki able and dryer than it is now. When I talk with the company I choose to do the work, what "terms should I use when talking"? Should I ask for a different blade option or is the six way blade functional enough to do the work I need but at the same time be the fastest wat to achieve the crown I am looking for?
Thanks again, sorry for cunfusing you all.

EW
I will be Deer hunting at the shack for the next 2 weeks, will be thinking abouty you down in sweatville HEHE. You do remember "deer hunting" Ya know. Michigans past time? ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-11-21          158060


BA: Maaaaaan! You must not read your older posts! I tellls ya I have been back since March of '07! Where ya been?

Michigan's "past time" right now is keeping up with the news to see if there will still be a Michigan if the so-called Big 3 go under. I have nose prints all over my TV screen! ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-11-21          158061


BA, much clearer now. ;)

Yes, I do think the 6 way blade on a small dozer will do the job no problem at all!!

Basically when you are speaking to prospective candidates to do the work you just need to be clear that you want nothing more than a graded out trail, no new material brought in, and that you don't want the trail for anything more than foot & 4 wheeler traffic.

For what you are doing your heavy clay soil is actually about the best you could get. The fact that it doesn't give or take water easily is a big bonus. As long as there's enough spots to take some fill to bring up the low spots the clay will hold it's shape and not wash out nicely.

As I mentioned, the trick will be to get them in shape and then get some ground cover, preferably grass growing over it. If you can do that, and limit the 4 wheelers from chewing it you shouldn't have any problems for many years to come.

I built some similar type trails ~15 years ago at our hunt camp. They still look as good today as they did when they were first built.

If you have a heavy box blade (especially with scarifiers) I'd be tempted to have a go at it with that on the tractor first, at the very least it will flatten out the existing trails and make them usable.

Best of luck. ....


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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2009-01-01          158995


Sorry to all here about my "in and out" postings. Im not trying to be rude on purpose and I do appreciate the answers. Work is un-real this year with a finished total of 3516 hrs. Two kids up at college 300 plus miles away and travel back and forth (and then making it back to work) has ate me up this year. So again, sorry bought the lack of involvement.
Murf
Thanks alot. That is what I was looking for. So, planting on top the trails is a good idea then! I figured it would be. Our clay also has large rocks that grow every year so scarifers and a box blade is almost futile.
UPDATE: this is real important. I talked my bride OUT of building a permanant residence back there. The reality has hit me this year that I am not getting younger. Keeping that kind of driveway open in our winters wil require too much time. Maybe not now but as I get older I wont want or think that is fun. We are leaning toards just a high end small cabin way back in there. The road/driveway talk has helped me in my decision.
EW
Sorry for not keeping up. So, where do you live and work now? I need to know so if I try and bust your b-lls again I can get it right. Are you back in Michigan? I hope so! ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2009-01-01          158997


Broken-who?

Welcome to the board! We had a guy here with a name identical to yours--last we heard from hiom was oh... a week before THANKSGIVING.

Yes, I am still in Michigan. Do you know where Traverse City, Flint, Grand Rapids are?

I'm not anywhere near them. hahahaha I am southwest of Deeeetroit about 20 miles just 30 miles north of Toldeo, Ohio. It's not the end of the world, but we can see it from here.

Bust my b---s, eh? (Don't they call 'em Prairie Oysters?) Good luck findin' 'em with all this cold weather we have! Sucka!

ANd when is that new L185 coming eh? ....


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